Appalled...

[wheelsup]

I believe if some of the 'rules' of AK where applied in the CONUS we would all get paid better.

No - they already tried that. "Back in the day" pre-911 my company hired with 2500 TT 500 turbine, that was the minimum, you had to have that to get a slot in class.

Guess what? They got paid less than we do now.

 

[ppragman]

No - they already tried that. "Back in the day" pre-911 my company hired with 2500 TT 500 turbine, that was the minimum, you had to have that to get a slot in class.

Guess what? They got paid less than we do now.

If people would stop leaving decent paying jobs at 2500TT and 500 turbine to make less this wouldn't be a problem.

 

[IrishSheepdog]

The solution would be to make the standards higher to be employed, and retain employment, as an airline pilot. We all know there are many pilots out there who probably would not be able to retain their job should more stringent hiring and training standards be enforced. However, we have made it so easy to become an airline pilot, and more importantly stay an airline pilot, that there will always be a massive pool of qualified applicants. That is because the qualifications are so low.

I might seem like a jerk for putting it that way, but it is the truth. We all want to make it seem we work so hard to become pilots. Yes, some pilots have worked hard. But when you can go purchase your ratings at so-called "pilot mills," and get pushed through the training curriculum without really learning, then there is an ultimate problem here.

If you want more pay and better benefits, then you need to make the standards tougher and this job more competitive. Right now, employers can offer whatever they want in compensation. If the training standards were much tougher, you'd have a higher washout rate, and employers would be forced to compensate appropriately.

If you really believe there will be a massive walk-out, think again. Nothing is going to change. If anything, it will only get worse. True change would take a complete paradigm shift of the entire FAA and US-based airline training process. Too many of us are afraid of the consequences of that happening. We'd actually have to study...

 

[wheelsup]

If people would stop leaving decent paying jobs at 2500TT and 500 turbine to make less this wouldn't be a problem.

A lot of guys came from smaller commuters like Lakes or Gulfstream. Some came from 135 and 121 freight companies. Some are ex-corporate and had to seek employment when their corporate flight departments were shut down. In other words it ran the gamut. In most cases it was a pay raise, especially if you came from a smaller commuter or freight company.

Also keep in mind the top out here was well over $100/hr living in low COL areas of the country. It was a pretty good place to call home. It was also once a shoe-in for UAL.

 

[RPM]

"That's fair, but what's better? 20-on reserve at a base away from home, then 10-off, or 2-weeks-on-2-weeks-off making $200/day plus $25/hr for flight times over 60hrs in a month?" "I wish I could fly RJs, it'd be awesome if I could have decent pay and go cool places as I captained an Embraer, but I can't and won't because I don't want to live on less than $30,000 per year"

well.. not all regional FO's are paid that badly.. maybe Colgan and Lakes..

I'm a regional FO and I make appx. $240-280 per day for example or $330ish on an OT Day trip.. I have 14-15 days off per month plus weekends off.. not saying thats good pay by any means for this job.. just saying.. I make a lot more than the (less than 30K everyone always talks about). It is possible to make close to 60K as a regional FO if you work the system to the max and know every little trick there is. I've seen the W2's.

 

[skydog]

I still have a very difficult time accepting what pilots make. It's an absolute insult. Starting salary for a regional jet FO should be $75K. Hell, I hire customer service representatives in my business with little or no technical or college level training and pay them $40K a year to start.

Some how, some way, this needs to change. Although militant sounding, a total walk off should be organized and executed by ALPA. I would support that in any way possible and I am not even an airline pilot anymore.

I agree. It's an absolute insult. But here's some good news: you don't have to accept it! You are free to walk away from any employer that you feel does not pay you a fair market wage.

Owning a business, you must understand principles of supply and demand as they relate to hiring employees. You pay 40K for employees because at 39K you can't get qualified applicants, and at 41K you are over-run with applicants.

You should also understand that increased salaries bring increased expenses. Without a corresponding increase in revenues and profits, those increased salaries are not going to last very long, because your business won't last very long. Unless of course, you as the owner are willing to take less profit for yourself. Too each his own, but I don't see much point to going into business for yourself if someone else is going to benefit from it.

As a business owner you must understand that if the business is not not making money, than it doesn't matter what "should" be paid: You don't raise salaries (i.e, expenses) when you're already not taking in enough income to pay the bills, unless you can't get people to come work for you. That indicates a flawed business model, but that's a different issue.

Frankly, I find it difficult to believe you own a business, at least not a successful one. But if do, then you must be making a lot more than what you pay your employees. Why would you want to go into commercial aviation?

Going through the rest of this thread, I noted almost everyone's "solution" to the so-called problem involves someone else changing their behavior. "Pilots shouldn't do this" "ALPA should do that." "Government should do the other." Not one word do I hear about someone making a different choice. It's always "Someone should (insert solution here). Here's an idea folks. Take responsibility for your own choices and your own life. If aviation is not meeting your career needs, then find another vocation. There are countless ways of making a living out there. Choose one. But there is no woulda coulda shoulda here. That's for children. Accept aviation for what it is, or move on to something else. Either way, take responsibility for it rather than pawning it off on "someone else."

The thing that really concerns me is the amount of support this whole "three strikes and you're out" business is garnering. Are you serious? Do you really want the government to say who can and who can't be a pilot based on how long or how many attempts it takes?
That sets a dangerous precedent. What happens when someone takes 3 or 4 times to pass the bar exam? Should they be banned from being a lawyer? How about someone who takes 3 or 4 attempts at a teacher certification exam? Does the guy who fails his driver's test 3 times never get to have a driver's license? Do you really want the the government controlling entry into a given career field in that manner?

That's not even considering the economic impact that such regulations would have.

All that being said, I refuse to accept the premise of the thread. Regional airline pilots are making 40K+ once off their probationary year. Captains are making $70-80K. Double those figures for guys at the majors. When did 160K a year become low pay? Granted it's not what it once was, but then again neither is the airline industry. You can't have one without the other. You want to go back to the old way, then you'd better be prepared to accept all that comes with it (for example, a lot fewer pilot jobs).

 

[MikeD]

When did 160K a year become low pay? .

For the 50+ Capt at a major, 3 times divorced with kids, house, car, and the stripper girlfriend

Actually, agree with personal responsibility being part of any decisions, and the outcomes that come from them. Some things aren't within control, many others are.

 

[Trip7]

I agree. It's an absolute insult. But here's some good news: you don't have to accept it! You are free to walk away from any employer that you feel does not pay you a fair market wage.

Owning a business, you must understand principles of supply and demand as they relate to hiring employees. You pay 40K for employees because at 39K you can't get qualified applicants, and at 41K you are over-run with applicants.

You should also understand that increased salaries bring increased expenses. Without a corresponding increase in revenues and profits, those increased salaries are not going to last very long, because your business won't last very long. Unless of course, you as the owner are willing to take less profit for yourself. Too each his own, but I don't see much point to going into business for yourself if someone else is going to benefit from it.

As a business owner you must understand that if the business is not not making money, than it doesn't matter what "should" be paid: You don't raise salaries (i.e, expenses) when you're already not taking in enough income to pay the bills, unless you can't get people to come work for you. That indicates a flawed business model, but that's a different issue.

Frankly, I find it difficult to believe you own a business, at least not a successful one. But if do, then you must be making a lot more than what you pay your employees. Why would you want to go into commercial aviation?

Going through the rest of this thread, I noted almost everyone's "solution" to the so-called problem involves someone else changing their behavior. "Pilots shouldn't do this" "ALPA should do that." "Government should do the other." Not one word do I hear about someone making a different choice. It's always "Someone should (insert solution here). Here's an idea folks. Take responsibility for your own choices and your own life. If aviation is not meeting your career needs, then find another vocation. There are countless ways of making a living out there. Choose one. But there is no woulda coulda shoulda here. That's for children. Accept aviation for what it is, or move on to something else. Either way, take responsibility for it rather than pawning it off on "someone else."

The thing that really concerns me is the amount of support this whole "three strikes and you're out" business is garnering. Are you serious? Do you really want the government to say who can and who can't be a pilot based on how long or how many attempts it takes?
That sets a dangerous precedent. What happens when someone takes 3 or 4 times to pass the bar exam? Should they be banned from being a lawyer? How about someone who takes 3 or 4 attempts at a teacher certification exam? Does the guy who fails his driver's test 3 times never get to have a driver's license? Do you really want the the government controlling entry into a given career field in that manner?

That's not even considering the economic impact that such regulations would have.

All that being said, I refuse to accept the premise of the thread. Regional airline pilots are making 40K+ once off their probationary year. Captains are making $70-80K. Double those figures for guys at the majors. When did 160K a year become low pay? Granted it's not what it once was, but then again neither is the airline industry. You can't have one without the other. You want to go back to the old way, then you'd better be prepared to accept all that comes with it (for example, a lot fewer pilot jobs).

:yeahthat:

A very well written response. I agree whole-heartly with your final statement. Everybody has been screaming to re-regulate like its just going to flood all pilots pockets with cash. I believe that re-regulating the industry will result in AT LEAST a 50% loss of 121 pilot jobs. Be careful what you wish for.......

 

[Velocipede]

For the 50+ Capt at a major, 3 times divorced with kids, house, car, and the stripper girlfriend .

HEY! I resemble that!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

However, we have made it so easy to become an airline pilot, and more importantly stay an airline pilot, that there will always be a massive pool of qualified applicants. That is because the qualifications are so low.

I completely disagree with your statement about "staying" an airline pilot. Yes, there should be a tougher system to actually get to this level, but it certainly shouldn't become tougher to maintain your job. We are already one of the most scrutinized professions in the world. Checkrides every 6 months, recurrent training every year, line checks every year, random drug testing, medicals every 6 months, etc... It's ridiculous. Even surgeons don't have to put up with this much BS.

 

[Socal321]

Everybody has been screaming to re-regulate like its just going to flood all pilots pockets with cash. I believe that re-regulating the industry will result in AT LEAST a 50% loss of 121 pilot jobs. Be careful what you wish for.......

That's the whole point, nothing else is going to raise salaries and benefits. If not regulation then heavy merging.

 

[Socal321]

I agree. It's an absolute insult. But here's some good news: you don't have to accept it! You are free to walk away from any employer that you feel does not pay you a fair market wage.

Owning a business, you must understand principles of supply and demand as they relate to hiring employees. You pay 40K for employees because at 39K you can't get qualified applicants, and at 41K you are over-run with applicants.

You should also understand that increased salaries bring increased expenses. Without a corresponding increase in revenues and profits, those increased salaries are not going to last very long, because your business won't last very long. Unless of course, you as the owner are willing to take less profit for yourself. Too each his own, but I don't see much point to going into business for yourself if someone else is going to benefit from it.

As a business owner you must understand that if the business is not not making money, than it doesn't matter what "should" be paid: You don't raise salaries (i.e, expenses) when you're already not taking in enough income to pay the bills, unless you can't get people to come work for you. That indicates a flawed business model, but that's a different issue.

Frankly, I find it difficult to believe you own a business, at least not a successful one. But if do, then you must be making a lot more than what you pay your employees. Why would you want to go into commercial aviation?

Going through the rest of this thread, I noted almost everyone's "solution" to the so-called problem involves someone else changing their behavior. "Pilots shouldn't do this" "ALPA should do that." "Government should do the other." Not one word do I hear about someone making a different choice. It's always "Someone should (insert solution here). Here's an idea folks. Take responsibility for your own choices and your own life. If aviation is not meeting your career needs, then find another vocation. There are countless ways of making a living out there. Choose one. But there is no woulda coulda shoulda here. That's for children. Accept aviation for what it is, or move on to something else. Either way, take responsibility for it rather than pawning it off on "someone else."

The thing that really concerns me is the amount of support this whole "three strikes and you're out" business is garnering. Are you serious? Do you really want the government to say who can and who can't be a pilot based on how long or how many attempts it takes?
That sets a dangerous precedent. What happens when someone takes 3 or 4 times to pass the bar exam? Should they be banned from being a lawyer? How about someone who takes 3 or 4 attempts at a teacher certification exam? Does the guy who fails his driver's test 3 times never get to have a driver's license? Do you really want the the government controlling entry into a given career field in that manner?

That's not even considering the economic impact that such regulations would have.

All that being said, I refuse to accept the premise of the thread. Regional airline pilots are making 40K+ once off their probationary year. Captains are making $70-80K. Double those figures for guys at the majors. When did 160K a year become low pay? Granted it's not what it once was, but then again neither is the airline industry. You can't have one without the other. You want to go back to the old way, then you'd better be prepared to accept all that comes with it (for example, a lot fewer pilot jobs).

Skydog, your persistent anti pilot and pro management views are troubling. And you keep using the same argument, get out if you can't handle it. Pilots can't just up and walk out of a flying job because it's such a small industry and they've spend years and a lot of money on this profession. Where are people going to go? And secondly, it's very true that management has to keep the bottom line therefore a big expense such as a pilot group has to be in check but isn't it interesting how every airline can't afford to pay their pilots without bargaining? If we all went by that principle then we would all be making minimum wage. The real solution lies in less competition not with the actual pilots, WE can't do anything about it other than to hopefully not be bottom feeders. Regional pilots make NOTHING in relation to what they have to put up with and sacrifice. How far are you willing to go to make 20,40,60,70, 80K at a regional, how about not being home for 80% of the month? Give me a break the average regional pilot makes 30 to 50k, it really is appalling.

 

[IrishSheepdog]

I completely disagree with your statement about "staying" an airline pilot. Yes, there should be a tougher system to actually get to this level, but it certainly shouldn't become tougher to maintain your job. We are already one of the most scrutinized professions in the world. Checkrides every 6 months, recurrent training every year, line checks every year, random drug testing, medicals every 6 months, etc... It's ridiculous. Even surgeons don't have to put up with this much BS.

Oh come on now. Our medical evaluations are a joke. Most companies proficiency checks are a joke too.

 

[derg]

Two jokes I don't mind!

 

[Trip7]

I completely disagree with your statement about "staying" an airline pilot. Yes, there should be a tougher system to actually get to this level, but it certainly shouldn't become tougher to maintain your job. We are already one of the most scrutinized professions in the world. Checkrides every 6 months, recurrent training every year, line checks every year, random drug testing, medicals every 6 months, etc... It's ridiculous. Even surgeons don't have to put up with this much BS.

:yeahthat: The US has the best airline safety record in the world. The system is not the problem. And I highly doubt any educated businessman or politician is going to propose stricter training standards in the name of raising pilot pay.

Two jokes I don't mind!

:yeahthat:

That's the whole point, nothing else is going to raise salaries and benefits. If not regulation then heavy merging.

And what is the result of heavy merging? Less jobs. Ask the NWA/DAL folks about that. Regulation will be much worse than mega merges. Say goodbye to all the LLCs. Pay will absolutely go up. But very few pilots would ever make it to the major and/or regional airlines.

 

[ppragman]

I completely disagree with your statement about "staying" an airline pilot. Yes, there should be a tougher system to actually get to this level, but it certainly shouldn't become tougher to maintain your job. We are already one of the most scrutinized professions in the world. Checkrides every 6 months, recurrent training every year, line checks every year, random drug testing, medicals every 6 months, etc... It's ridiculous. Even surgeons don't have to put up with this much BS.

We're not really that supervised/scrutinized. The guys I know working in the oil field have a load of hoops they have to jump through just to go to work. Same with really any other professional field. Ever been mandated that you do CEUs to continue your flying? Nope, but some fields/some companies require it. I dunno. I tend to think that we've got it pretty easy for the responsibility we have. I can't complain, the last thing I want is more micro-management, but yeah, its not really that bad for us.

 

[granlistillo]

Same with really any other professional field. Ever been mandated that you do CEUs to continue your flying? Nope, but some fields/some companies require it. I dunno.

Mileage varies. I think the post talks about the 121 world. While not CEU per se, as pointed out we have mandatory online training, recurrent, pc, pt, differences, linechecks, fed rides, requal, initial, transition, upgrade...

 

[Trip7]

We're not really that supervised/scrutinized. The guys I know working in the oil field have a load of hoops they have to jump through just to go to work. Same with really any other professional field. Ever been mandated that you do CEUs to continue your flying? Nope, but some fields/some companies require it. I dunno. I tend to think that we've got it pretty easy for the responsibility we have. I can't complain, the last thing I want is more micro-management, but yeah, its not really that bad for us.

Have you flown 121 before? I'm just guessing you have since you said "we"

 

[granlistillo]

Going through the rest of this thread, I noted almost everyone's "solution" to the so-called problem involves someone else changing their behavior. "Pilots shouldn't do this" "ALPA should do that." "Government should do the other." Not one word do I hear about someone making a different choice. It's always "Someone should (insert solution here). Here's an idea folks. Take responsibility for your own choices and your own life. If aviation is not meeting your career needs, then find another vocation. There are countless ways of making a living out there. Choose one. But there is no woulda coulda shoulda here. That's for children. Accept aviation for what it is, or move on to something else. Either way, take responsibility for it rather than pawning it off on "someone else."

You know skydog,
Your laissez faire, milton freidman philosophical argument rings hollow. And I believe that the hidden hand tends to work pretty well. If we really were gonna pull an Ayn Rand John Galt move, abolish the RLA. If I could have the freedom of free association and action, the union could then decide to strike.

I appreciate your views, but really there is nothing free market about this gig, so there is no lecture needed.

 

[imatworkallday]

- There has been a steady decline in commercial pilot certificates awarded in the past 10-15 years.. with an evermore decreasing number each year. (an FAA statistic)
- No students in flight school.... (My main point is that this will just keep compounding and eventually there aren't going to be that many newbies to take the jets at low time)

Just my two cents...I was doing some research for a class and found out the ratio of instructors to students is almost 2:1. This is for all the people that went and got their student licenses/medical. This doesnt count those individuals who have quit.