meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Another option would be to grade ratings academically rather than just a pass/fail system. Grade point averages have a way of keeping the slackers out of medical, dental, and other graduate schools.
Appalled...
- Thread starter meritflyer
- Start date
Another option would be to grade ratings academically rather than just a pass/fail system. Grade point averages have a way of keeping the slackers out of medical, dental, and other graduate schools.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Yup. For what it's worth (not much
) Im the last pilot on the list furlough protected by the new contract.The question of whose best interest ALPA national is concerned with is irrelevant when it comes to the Comair MEC's decision.
Now I do believe that ALPA national is concerned with the regionals just as much as they are concerned with the Majors. I think someone said that the Fee-per-departure committee is the hardest committee to get on at ALPA national. Check out this thread http://forums.jetcareers.com/airline-pilots/82530-fee-departure-committee.html
and this one http://forums.jetcareers.com/airline-pilots/72521-whats-alpa-doing-little-guys.html
That's cool, and I hope so. Just throwing the questions out there.
Like I said, my main pet peeve is hypocrisy, whether from management or the union. And there's alot of it to go around to both.
It's all about supply and demand. But the kicker is that in other normal businesses, what do you do when you need people? You raise the benefits and salary. What do you do at the airlines? You reduce minimums and they will come. If they don't come, make your own pilots. At some point in the last 50 years a pandoras box was opened. The airline industry is doomed we might as well all gather around and watch it burn. The only way for things to improve is if there is regulation like in the old days or if there is HEAVY downsizing of competition as in one or two legacies and a handful of nationals but that would also mean less jobs. No one wants that. Why do you think GOV got out of regulating the airlines? There is no hope.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Also found this to help look at the regional pay trend over the years:
Pre-9/11 XJT was on contract 97. pay rates at date of signing (10/1997) were:
1yr FO - (all) - 14.89
2yr FO - (jet) - 21.79
2yr FO - (prop) - 16.94
5yr CA (prop, 0-19 seats) - 29.29
5yr CA (prop, 20-39 seats) - 35.44
5yr CA (prop, 40-49 seats) - 41.12 ($5 override for ATR-72)
5yr CA (jet, 30-40 seats) - n/a
5yr CA (jet, 50-59 seats) - 47.32
on 9/11 pay rates were:
1yr FO - (all) - 18.99
2yr FO - (jet) - 26.93
2yr FO - (prop) - 21.42
5yr CA (prop, 0-19 seats) - 33.56
5yr CA (prop, 20-39 seats) - 41.55
5yr CA (prop, 40-49 seats) - 48.25 ($5 override for ATR-72)
5yr CA (jet, 30-40 seats) - 51.14
5yr CA (jet, 50-59 seats) - 56.38
pay today at XJT (10/2007):
1yr FO (all) - 22.59
2yr FO (all) - 33.62
5yr CA (emb135) - 59.88
5yr CA (emb145) - 67.73
IMO pay has slowly crept up. Not nearly enough to keep up with inflation, or with the rate that bigger planes have been being added, but it has gone up.
Pre-9/11 XJT was on contract 97. pay rates at date of signing (10/1997) were:
1yr FO - (all) - 14.89
2yr FO - (jet) - 21.79
2yr FO - (prop) - 16.94
5yr CA (prop, 0-19 seats) - 29.29
5yr CA (prop, 20-39 seats) - 35.44
5yr CA (prop, 40-49 seats) - 41.12 ($5 override for ATR-72)
5yr CA (jet, 30-40 seats) - n/a
5yr CA (jet, 50-59 seats) - 47.32
on 9/11 pay rates were:
1yr FO - (all) - 18.99
2yr FO - (jet) - 26.93
2yr FO - (prop) - 21.42
5yr CA (prop, 0-19 seats) - 33.56
5yr CA (prop, 20-39 seats) - 41.55
5yr CA (prop, 40-49 seats) - 48.25 ($5 override for ATR-72)
5yr CA (jet, 30-40 seats) - 51.14
5yr CA (jet, 50-59 seats) - 56.38
pay today at XJT (10/2007):
1yr FO (all) - 22.59
2yr FO (all) - 33.62
5yr CA (emb135) - 59.88
5yr CA (emb145) - 67.73
IMO pay has slowly crept up. Not nearly enough to keep up with inflation, or with the rate that bigger planes have been being added, but it has gone up.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Great idea on paper, but why would the gov't propose to spend money on a new system that will decrease the pilot pool and increase wages, when planes aren't crashing and the current system is working just fine?
Supply and demand is the only leverage we have. And they took that away from us for another 5 years.
I agree that it has, factually speaking, gone up. But the figures shown, along with you comments about inflation/addition of plane; brings to mind the old saying "....other than that, how was Dallas, Mrs Kennedy?"
turd jay
Well-Known Member
I'm not quite sure how soon this would take effect but it seems to me and to a few other folks I have spoken too that we may have an upcoming pilot shortage which might spur a pay increase in the future. Hey what can I say... I'm pretty optimistic. Here are some reasonings I am sure you all have heard:
- The industry sucks... not many are going to flight school now
- The pay sucks... same as above
- Age 65
- There has been a steady decline in commercial pilot certificates awarded in the past 10-15 years.. with an evermore decreasing number each year. (an FAA statistic)
- No students in flight school.... (My main point is that this will just keep compounding and eventually there aren't going to be that many newbies to take the jets at low time)
It just seems to me no one wants this job anymore other than the folks who truly love to fly. Thats why we all have SJS... we just want to fly bigger and bigger stuff. Anyway.. I'm getting away from my main point.
I know there are quite a few pilots on the street today. But not all of them are going to return. I know of one in particular that threw in the towel the other day. So my idea is that in a few years 3-5... airline/corporate jobs will be pretty lucrative and they will be begging for pilots.. (ok that might be overly an optimistic timeframe, but we all can dream cant we?)
- The industry sucks... not many are going to flight school now
- The pay sucks... same as above
- Age 65
- There has been a steady decline in commercial pilot certificates awarded in the past 10-15 years.. with an evermore decreasing number each year. (an FAA statistic)
- No students in flight school.... (My main point is that this will just keep compounding and eventually there aren't going to be that many newbies to take the jets at low time)
It just seems to me no one wants this job anymore other than the folks who truly love to fly. Thats why we all have SJS... we just want to fly bigger and bigger stuff. Anyway.. I'm getting away from my main point.
I know there are quite a few pilots on the street today. But not all of them are going to return. I know of one in particular that threw in the towel the other day. So my idea is that in a few years 3-5... airline/corporate jobs will be pretty lucrative and they will be begging for pilots.. (ok that might be overly an optimistic timeframe, but we all can dream cant we?)
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Absolutely no reason to be optimistic the world will end in 2012 before the airlines even have a chance to turn around....
Haha, so true
dc3flyer
Well-Known Member
I ABSOLUTELY agree with this. When I was an instructor and many regionals were hiring with 500 or even 300 hours, I kept instructing until I had 135 mins. Granted I did it by choice, because I felt instructing was giving me a great deal of experience and didn't think I (or really many other pilots I know) was ready to be flying 50 people around in a regional jet with less than 135 mins. It also gave me a little longer to dream and research the avaition world and decided to not even go to the airlines.
I think with the economy as it is today, and lenders not lending money so freely, we will begin to see a reduction in qualified pilots that may lead to a better pay structure throughout the industry. Only time will tell my friends.
Why would a pilot shortage help with raising our pay and QOL? Didn't we just have a shortage of pilots in 06/07 and early 08? All that did was bring about all the SJS types. This industry operates on another space time dimension, it's not like any other business. It's very simple, if they can't find pilots they'll make their own just like all the other airlines are doing worldwide. The secret is out, pilots will fly for food. We've proven it the last 10 years.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
But the person who graduated last in the class at med school is still called "Doctor."
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I like your idea, but I think it will result in lowered minimums. If the FAA turns into JAA type certification it will result in brighter and more capable pilots coming onto the market, reducing the need for the extra flight time. I say this because look at the other two forms of training and pilot certification, JAA and military. They routinely produce high quality, low time pilots.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Only because there is an artificial cap on how many available "slots" there are to become a doctor, hence the competition to enter med school. There is no such limitation on how many new pilot certificates are issued.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
I didn't say that my wish-list was either/or. It is both.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
I agree with the more pay thing 100%, but the horse is definitely dead, at least the payscale in aviation is steeper than most industries. The truth is the only reason there are ANY jobs right now is the retirements. Despite the slumping economy and pushback to 65 the babyboom generation is still retiring (albeit slower) making room for us up and comers...
As for the pay itself, I still think theres hope when the next expansion comes slowly but surely I think the shortages will be more than the last time, and if it lasts more than the 20 months or so like last time, regionals might have to just but to bump pay and give some type of bonus for keeping pilots... :rawk:
I say, "glass half full!"
As for the pay itself, I still think theres hope when the next expansion comes slowly but surely I think the shortages will be more than the last time, and if it lasts more than the 20 months or so like last time, regionals might have to just but to bump pay and give some type of bonus for keeping pilots... :rawk:
I say, "glass half full!"
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
With poor undergrad and/(maybe or) MCAT performance, you wont find your way into medical school.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
It is against the law and jail time with extremely large fines would be given out.
I know quite a few pilot groups are working on a few things to legally swing the pendulum back in pilots favor.
esa17
Well-Known Member
And on top of that, why should my "GA career" subsidize someones job that they'll leave after two years because they're not making 120k flying a 747?
