Appalled...

[SpiraMirabilis]

Again, I don't think the word subsidizing means what you think it means unless you suggest that the user fees would be paid to the airlines somehow? Here I thought they would be used to modernize our NAS which desperately needs it.

 

[Socal321]

I say this because look at the other two forms of training and pilot certification, JAA and military. They routinely produce high quality, low time pilots.

When did the JAA become the equivalent of the military? Give me a 4000 freight pilot VS a Lufthansa caded that aced her tests and got an A320 type rating at 200 hours. When that happens you make a crosswing landing with your wingtip. Flying is also VERY unaccessible in other parts of the world it's not just the gov agency that weeds out applicants... I know it seems like it. There is no proof that a JAA pilot wouldn't sell their soul for flight time because they'd had it harder and in fact they have to in more cases than us because there's not that many jobs. It's about supply and demand, no airline will EVER pay their pilots based on merit. If it was for them they'd pay minimum wage.

 

[C150J]

I'll go with you on this one. Three strikes and you're out.

I agree with this as long as testing and training becomes WAY, WAY more standardized and documented. We all know that there are many "drive-through" pilot mills with DEs to match, while there are other pilot training institutions that actually adhere to thorough checkride protocol. Currently, a "three strikes and you're out" rule would be like passing over the MIT aerospace engineer grad for someone else because his GPA was a 3.5 and not a 4.0.

Not to mention that a good deal of 141 schools have replaced real checkrides with non-"PRIABLE" stage checks.

I personally don't know of anyone who has failed three or more checkrides, but would contend that there are some out there that have developed into fine aviators with EXPERIENCE under their belt.


Edited to add: it's sad that 121 carriers are even having to look at PRIMARY training records. Applicants at the regional level should have more recent experience than a checkride to prove their professional aptitude. It's equivalent to a graduate school looking at your grade school performance as an admissions criteria.
J.

 

[Minnesota_Flyer]

But the person who graduated last in the class at med school is still called "Doctor."

They do not, however, tend to survive residency.

 

[deadstick]

With poor undergrad and/(maybe or) MCAT performance, you wont find your way into medical school.

The are DO's and, of course, there is always Grenada for med school. In med school, how low can the GPA go before you don't graduate?

 

[DavCo]

It is against the law and jail time with extremely large fines would be given out.

I know quite a few pilot groups are working on a few things to legally swing the pendulum back in pilots favor.

I agree. The government has deemed Airline service too vital for workers to strike. I talked to a union rep and said the only power they really have is what they refer to as a "slow down" where pilots show just how important their job is and how hard they do work for on time departures.

That being said, how did Continental and United manage to strike? Was that before it became illegal?

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Slow downs are illegal also, unless released to self-help.

 

[meritflyer]

The are DO's and, of course, there is always Grenada for med school. In med school, how low can the GPA go before you don't graduate?

If you do make it in with a low GPA, you don't make it through necessarily.If you do make it in and through, you wont make a decent residency. If you make it through all three, you still have boards to pass.

DOs don't make it in with ANY less education. I have DOs in my family and there is ZERO difference both getting in and proceeding successfully through school, residency, and boards.

Medical (both allopathic and osteopathic), dental, podiatry, optometry, or any other discipline will weed you out academically regardless.

 

[JoelT]

That being said, how did Continental and United manage to strike? Was that before it became illegal?

Strikes are not illegal and never have been. It is just the last administration would not allow them under the guise of the NMB never declaring an impasse. (read up on Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act of 1926)

 

[MikeD]

If you do make it in with a low GPA, you don't make it through necessarily.If you do make it in and through, you wont make a decent residency. If you make it through all three, you still have boards to pass.

DOs don't make it in with ANY less education. I have DOs in my family and there is ZERO difference both getting in and proceeding successfully through school, residency, and boards.

Medical (both allopathic and osteopathic), dental, podiatry, optometry, or any other discipline will weed you out academically regardless.

Back in the day, there used to be a difference in training, and perceived quality between MDs and DOs. Today, and it's been like this for a good while, there's little if any difference between the two. (Entire family are doctors, MD and DO.....then there's me; EMT is farthest I went ).

 

[RPM]

DOs don't make it in with ANY less education. I have DOs in my family and there is ZERO difference both getting in and proceeding successfully through school, residency, and boards.

.

eh.. not a difference in education level but a difference in GPA and MCAT scores for a DO.

I can't get into an MD school because of GPA.. mainly because they don't allow retakes, which I have used to up my GPA for screwing off when I was younger.. I had to replace some W's from walking out on a semester 10yrs ago.. which absolutely killed my MD app GPA.

DO schools allow "retakes" in your GPA calc and they allow a slightly lower overall GPA as well.. also they will look at lower MCAT scores (in general) where a top tier MD school would just chuck your app.. so it makes a big difference for people like me who were screw-off's earlier in life, now getting accepted into a DO school, but I had absolutely zero chance with MD schools.. Just different standards allowed.. DO schools tend to look more at the total applicant, not just the GPA/MCAT #'s.. and tend to have a lot more people like me coming back into school looking at a career change. Not to say it isn't ultra competitive still.. because it is.. but less competitive than MD.

... now that I went back through this crap to get into a DO school.. eh.. I decided I don't want to suffer through another 4yrs of school plus a residency.. putting me at nearly 40yrs old.. so i'll just stay where Im at for now.. at least I have the option when the airline tanks..:buck:

 

[Rocketman99]

Back in the day, there used to be a difference in training, and perceived quality between MDs and DOs. Today, and it's been like this for a good while, there's little if any difference between the two. (Entire family are doctors, MD and DO.....then there's me; EMT is farthest I went ).

But you are an MD! Oh wait...you didn't mean initials...

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Get ready cause this ain't funny my name's Mike D. and I'm about to get money.

 

[ppragman]

If I might play devil's advocate here, we all recognize that this is the problem.... however whenever someone suggests user fees or anything to increase the cost of GA flying they have a new hole torn in them.

Flying GA in america is cheaper than anywhere else in the world almost, which is weird because everything else is more expensive.

I don't really agree with user fees (except for business jets) but how else would we reduce the number of pilots available except for increase the cost of becoming one? I don't think we can go the AMA route and have limited numbers of pilots certified each year but that would be nice.

I make way more as a GA pilot than I would for three or four years at a regional and this is year one for this company. Nice try though. To be honest, the problem is pilots. If everyone wouldn't be so desperate to fly at a "real" job instead of CFI-ing, 135, etc. then the low pay wouldn't be the issue at 121 operators, and everyone everywhere would probably make slightly more. But now, as MikeD put it, everyone has SJS, so RJ pilots are a dime a dozen, and people who are willing to fly in the Bush, or freight etc. make more money. At Hageland, out of Bethel, starting pay in the C207 is $200/day. BTW, they have CASS, and benes too. But god forbid anyone would want to do that because its not turbine right? Right?

 

[wheelsup]

At Hageland, out of Bethel, starting pay in the C207 is $200/day. BTW, they have CASS, and benes too. But god forbid anyone would want to do that because its not turbine right? Right?

They pay that much because you have to live in the arctic tundra, can you not see that?

My wife's mother is a teacher, doesn't make much here in the continental United States but she's looking at doing some time down in Antarctica which would double her pay. Same idea.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I make way more as a GA pilot than I would for three or four years at a regional and this is year one for this company. Nice try though. To be honest, the problem is pilots. If everyone wouldn't be so desperate to fly at a "real" job instead of CFI-ing, 135, etc. then the low pay wouldn't be the issue at 121 operators, and everyone everywhere would probably make slightly more. But now, as MikeD put it, everyone has SJS, so RJ pilots are a dime a dozen, and people who are willing to fly in the Bush, or freight etc. make more money. At Hageland, out of Bethel, starting pay in the C207 is $200/day. BTW, they have CASS, and benes too. But god forbid anyone would want to do that because its not turbine right? Right?

You just reinforce my point. The reason you make a living wage is that the well of qualified AK bush pilots is smaller than the well of qualified "RJ" pilots.

 

[surreal1221]

At Hageland, out of Bethel, starting pay in the C207 is $200/day. BTW, they have CASS, and benes too. But god forbid anyone would want to do that because its not turbine right? Right?

Look, we get it.

You're a bad ass who flys in Alaska. You think everyone should also come up to Alaska and fly around.

Guess what, some of us don't like the cold or snow or being out in the middle of nowhere away from our families.

Give it up.

 

[wheelsup]

I'd go to Alaska if I could work contract work say 6 months out of the year and make a reasonable salary (say $60k-$70k). Other than that I agree with surreal. I grew in up in the northern US and hate the cold, and my wife is Canadian and never wants to see snow again.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

You just reinforce my point. The reason you make a living wage is that the well of qualified AK bush pilots is smaller than the well of qualified "RJ" pilots.

That can be changed artificially too. I m sure AK people get paid better because they have managed to uphold certain experience standards. I recently went on a job search in AK and I believe whenever chief pilots see resume's with less than 2000 hours on them their first thoughts are:

• SJS Rittalin kid looking for a thrill...
• Timebuilder...
• Unsteady and unreliable if hired, due to SJS and jumping sydrome.

They have managed to exclude people from thier hiring pool by default.
Just like the agricultural aviation industry. It works.
If you don't have the money to move up there and beg in person, there is nothing to be gained. No matter who you are, or what your attitude is.
Sure, some get in by referral or by having their resume walked in, but even with friends in AK I hve found this to be rather senseless.

To some respect this practice is honorable. On the other hand it's collective punishment for those of us who don't have any of the traits listed above. I'd rather fly Pats 207 than a RJ and AK is certainly a state worth discovering and living in. I don't care for cold, snow or bad weather. But thats *(like religion) personal taste and acceptance.

Just like within the Ag business, if you don't have someone taking you under his/ her wing - there isn't much you can do, except for spending a few grand to get up there and polish some doorknobs.

Just found my Gulfstream Academy Brochure they send me when my Commercial appeared on the FAA database...
As long as there are people selling their grandma and dog to do this job, nothing will ever change.

 

[surreal1221]

I'd do it, if I was single and didn't have a life already established. But, realistically, my "part-time" career has already come and gone. The time is now to put down roots and establish a family - not to go running off to Alaska to fly because some guy thinks I only fly where I do because it's "turbine" time. Nonsense.

It seems ppragman thinks everyone should do it his way, as shown in the "god forbid. . ." bit. But realistically, we each make our own decisions.

Some of us can understand that and some of us can not.