AOPAs Richard McSpadden accident, fatal

[drunkenbeagle]

A good point, though I figured at least getting back to an airport environment minimized the chances of encountering terrain or buildings.

One of you guys smarter than me also solve this one for me ... let's say you're taking off from a runway with an intersecting runway of the same length, making a perfect "+" sign. More efficient/better to try and put it down on the runway you just departed, or make a 270-degree turn to the intersecting runway?

That's exactly what I brief, but I plan for a 90 degree turn to the intersecting one. Below a few hundred feet, straight ahead. Above that, intersecting runway. Above that, turn into the wind for a 180. That's at an airport where I know I can make a runway surface at all times. I may have longer runways available though.

All things being equal, I would pick the shortest turn to someplace that is flat. If you are high, slips, flaps, s-turns and being fast will fix that quickly. Nothing is going to fix being low.

 

[MikeD]

Agree with the professor, slow quickly, lots of bank and don't waste time. Most importantly, turn into the wind.

Agree not to dilly-dally, but disagree in putting a ton of bank in and trying to wrap the plane around a turn. That will lead right to an accelerated stall, with the nose ceasing to track and the descent rate rapidly increasing. Especially if severely out of trim, which is quite possible in the startle of the moment.

Don’t waste time, indeed, but still try and fly the aircraft smoothly and help it to help you. If you need to be making any kind of severe or aerobatic style flight maneuvers to accomplish a turn back, then your altitude was too low to successfully do so and you’re better off taking a landing area in your 10 to 2 o’clock.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Agree not to dilly-dally, but disagree in putting a ton of bank in and trying to wrap the plane around a turn. That will lead right to an accelerated stall, with the nose ceasing to track and the descent rate rapidly increasing. Especially if severely out of trim, which is quite possible in the startle of the moment.

Don’t waste time, indeed, but still try and fly the aircraft smoothly and help it to help you. If you need to be making any kind of severe or aerobatic style flight maneuvers to accomplish a turn back, then your altitude was too low to successfully do so and you’re better off taking a landing area in your 10 to 2 o’clock.

In an ideal world, we would all have AoA indicators for exactly this scenario. Totally agree, nothing aerobatic is required or necessary. You will need a steeper bank and slower airspeed than a normal traffic pattern though, to get a minimum radius turn. Which is certainly dangerous if done improperly.

 

[SFCC/UND]

Terrible to hear. I believe he has a brother here at Brown.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

There’s a video of a Sling going down in San Pedro. It’s painful watching the bank angle increase and the AOA get worse, until it’s basically nose down into the ground. CFI+student on board.

 

[CFI A&P]

I don’t think yeeting back on the stick and trying to turn with rudder is a recipe for success

Barry Schiff broke it down a few years ago in his column. Like anything else, proper knowledge, experience and discipline make anything possible. If I remember correctly he emphasized on quick reaction (instead of lengthy delays and indecisiveness wasting critical time) and being comfortable doing something out of the ordinary -> A steep bank at low altitude to minimize the radius (keep close to airport boundaries) and not overload the wing forcing a stall. From what I have observed, the average pilot that gets their flight reviews at IHOP or Waffle House doesn't practice true stick and rudder skills and won't be able to see this maneuver through.

I won't go full Gryder and Monday morning quarterback the two pilots and their actions, but not only was McSpadden an accomplished aviator, so was the other victim. I will however shake my head at AOPA for their initial press releases saying McSpadden passed away and sort of ignoring Francis', maybe it was because of delays notifying next of kin or something, I don't know.

Sometimes the math just doesn't compute and the outcome isn't desirable.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Briefings matter.

The briefing should go a little further than a calculation of whether you can reach the runway. You should be asking if you’d be happy coming up well short of the runway. If you are okay with this it will take a lot of pressure off you when you make your turn.

When you lose an engine or the engine on take-off, the insurance company owns the plane and you should be looking for a survivable landing.

I flown ultralights off-and-on for decades. I’ve experienced a dozen engine-out events, it’s so common in the UL world that it isn’t especially stressful. It’s so common, we practice often.

The confidence of experience and talent might be a detriment in some of these cases. We lost a family friend, retired Navy pilot, when he attempted to get his T-34 (might have been T-28) back to the shore instead of putting it down in the Chesapeake.

 

[Kingairer]

The so-called impossible turn, is really a misnomer. It is merely a turn that you either possess the altitude to successfully complete when dead-stick, or that you don’t. Knowing what the AGL altitude ranges are, where you either commit to something in your 10 to 2 o’clock, to where you can make something in your 4 to 8 o’clock, and to where you can make a 210 degree-ish turn back to a landing surface (180 degrees + additional maneuvering for lineup), is key. These have to be practiced at altitude simulating a takeoff, and have to be fairly smoothly flown in terms of coordination. Any severe out of trim or yanking/banking of the controls will only artificially increase your descent rate

A turn back to an airport in and of itself, is not an impossible thing. It is merely a maneuver like any other where knowing your energy state you possess, vs knowing the energy you will require to accomplish how much of the above turn examples you require, and performed smoothly for minimum altitude loss which means having practiced doing so to make it habit in a stress situation; are all key.

There are times in GA single engine ops where if X happens at Y, you're screwed no matter what you do. Screwed, but maybe youll survive, but still screwed.

 

[Roger Roger]

Barry Schiff broke it down a few years ago in his column. Like anything else, proper knowledge, experience and discipline make anything possible. If I remember correctly he emphasized on quick reaction (instead of lengthy delays and indecisiveness wasting critical time) and being comfortable doing something out of the ordinary -> A steep bank at low altitude to minimize the radius (keep close to airport boundaries) and not overload the wing forcing a stall. From what I have observed, the average pilot that gets their flight reviews at IHOP or Waffle House doesn't practice true stick and rudder skills and won't be able to see this maneuver through.

I won't go full Gryder and Monday morning quarterback the two pilots and their actions, but not only was McSpadden an accomplished aviator, so was the other victim. I will however shake my head at AOPA for their initial press releases saying McSpadden passed away and sort of ignoring Francis', maybe it was because of delays notifying next of kin or something, I don't know.

Sometimes the math just doesn't compute and the outcome isn't desirable.

Sure but that’s different than the technique that Chasen was talking about. Maybe my basic aerodynamics is rusty but pulling to just above stall speed and then trying to assist the turn with the rudder sounds insane to me. We were lucky in the PC-12 which is what I’ve done the most practice turn backs in, you have the AOA derived green dot which is basically best L/D so while you’re maneuvering you can just pitch to that and be in the ballpark. No worrying about what your weight or bank angle are doing to your best glide speed because the AOA input takes care of that.

 

[Minuteman]

Then complicate it with, “Well the engine is still producing some power; it’s kinda hanging in there but I definitely need to get back to the airport. Oh, dang, it just quit.”

 

[MikeD]

I won't go full Gryder and Monday morning quarterback the two pilots and their actions, but not only was McSpadden an accomplished aviator, so was the other victim. I will however shake my head at AOPA for their initial press releases saying McSpadden passed away and sort of ignoring Francis', maybe it was because of delays notifying next of kin or something, I don't know.

Sometimes the math just doesn't compute and the outcome isn't desirable.

I believe that’s what it was. The other pilot wasn’t publicly named pending confirmation of official next of kin notification, at press time. I don’t think it was any kind of intentional negative thing.

 

[🦈💜]

I don’t think yeeting back on the stick and trying to turn with rudder is a recipe for success

Yeah, I ain't touchin' that one.

 

[ahw01]

A good point, though I figured at least getting back to an airport environment minimized the chances of encountering terrain or buildings.

One of you guys smarter than me also solve this one for me ... let's say you're taking off from a runway with an intersecting runway of the same length, making a perfect "+" sign. More efficient/better to try and put it down on the runway you just departed, or make a 270-degree turn to the intersecting runway?

I've done this at Jacksonville Craig. You can takeoff, Vx to 50 agl pull the throttle and land (with atc permission) that's a much better option.

CRG - Jacksonville Exec At Craig Airport | SkyVector

 

[trafficinsight]

It sounds like one of those jokes you'd tell.

"What do you do if you lose your AI in IMC?"

"Yank hard and kick a rudder!"

 

[invadertim]

Interestingly, 200ft is considered doable on a rope break turn back in gliders, many instructors teach a callout at 200ft to reinforce it. Depending on the instructor/conditions if they haven’t heard it by about 250’ your flight might get turned into a simulated rope break by the instructor pulling the release. In any event you’ll see something like it by solo.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Depending on the instructor/conditions if they haven’t heard it by about 250’ your flight might get turned into a simulated rope break by the instructor pulling the release.

Amazing how long it takes to get that hint for some... @Rocketman99 ?

 

[SteveC]

It sounds like one of those jokes you'd tell.

"What do you do if you lose your AI in IMC?"

"Yank hard and kick a rudder!"

I read that as Artificial Intelligence...

 

[inigo88]

I mean we can all debate it. Maybe push to 0.5g so you can roll quicker. Most people ignore the fact it's a 360 turn. 180 will point you from where you came but at a diameter from the runway. So you have to turn back again to land.

Just say no.

I wouldn’t really call it a 360. In gliders it’s an “a little more than a 180” to make a teardrop in a ~45 - 60 degree bank min radius turn at approach/best glide speed into the wind, then a little correction at the end.

From the glider flying handbook: “If the turn is made into the wind, only minor course corrections should be necessary to align the glider with the intended landing area.”

You brief three altitudes:

- Below 200 ft: Land straight ahead.
- Above 200 ft: Make a 180 degree turn and downwind landing.
- Above X (I think it was 300~400 ft?): Make an abbreviated pattern.

Anyone who has either soloed, or taken a checkride in gliders will have not only practiced all these three options but experienced one or several on their checkride.

Now a Cessna Cardinal has a lousy glide ratio compared with a sailplane but they’re all airplanes, your three altitudes in your before takeoff briefing just have to get higher.

 

[Beaker]

Interestingly, 200ft is considered doable on a rope break turn back in gliders, many instructors teach a callout at 200ft to reinforce it. Depending on the instructor/conditions if they haven’t heard it by about 250’ your flight might get turned into a simulated rope break by the instructor pulling the release. In any event you’ll see something like it by solo.

I remember learning this when getting my glider rating (coming from airplanes), and quickly going from "This is crazy" when my instructor briefed it to "Ok...now what am I going to do with all of this altitude?" after completing the turn. It's impressive what you can do with high L/D.

A big takeaway from glider training was having a well-reasoned and briefed failure plan from 0 all the way up to normal pattern altitude.

 

[Itchy]

This is practiced by anyone going through flightsafety in a pc 12. If (if?) the sim is accurate, high success rates happen at 1200 agl. A bit lower with a practiced hand.