AOPAs Richard McSpadden accident, fatal

MikeD

MikeD

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Richard McSpadden, Senior VP of AOPAs Air Safety Institute perished in the crash of a Cessna 177 Cardinal today along with another unidentified person in an accident on takeoff from Lake Placid, NY. In addition to being Senior VP of the ASI, McSpadden was a former career F-15A/C Eagle fighter pilot in the USAF and a former Commander of the USAF Thunderbirds from 2002-2003.

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Air Safety Institute's Richard McSpadden Dies In Crash - AVweb

Richard McSpadden, the senior vice president of the AOPA Air Safety Institute, died, along with one other person, in the crash of a Cessna 177RG near Lake Placid Airport in upstate New York Sunday. McSpadden was in the right seat. Russ Francis, a former NFL tight end and the new owner of Lake...
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Damn. I always watched his videos when they popped up on YouTube. Seemed like such a great guy, and was clearly an excellent instructor. What a horrible and sad loss for everyone.
 
This sucks. Far and away, I thought he was the only "YouTube ASI" who always kept it factual and professional. A real loss to the aviation community, and a reminder that if an emergency in a Cessna can take out a guy like him, the rest of us probably wouldn't walk away either. You never know.

ahw01 said:
The turnback they tell us never to do. Jeez.
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I've heard mixed things, depends who you ask. When a Mooney crashed doing the impossible turn at PAO a few years back, I met a CFI who was also a Professor of Physics at Stanford University. He apparently teaches his students that the turn isn't so impossible if you act immediately, slow down to the lowest controllable speed with a brisk yank on the stick, then do a minimum-radius turn largely with the rudder while diving for energy both so you don't stall the wing and so you make it back to the runway. Since he told me that, I practiced it a few times (at the New Jerusalem Airport near Tracy, CA where myths get busted), and while it is very involved and for sure requires a lot of focus, it seems very doable if you have 200-300ft to play with. That said, of course, it requires an instantaneous commitment and kinda feels like an aerobatic maneuver, so I'd personally just put it in a field if one was roughly along my present heading. But as I can't swim, if water was the alternative, I think I'd rather take my chances with the "Nope, teardrop" option. It has led to a lot of accidents, but I've also read plenty of success stories. Just depends where you're going to end up if not the runway. Over dense residential, maybe its worth a shot IF you are confident you can pull it off and not doing so means hitting a house. With a strong tailwind or a plane with a wacky CG or something, of course, probably not a good idea.
 
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Murdoughnut said:
Damn. I always praised him for being the anti-Gryder/Blonco•tardo. If that guy could die in a GA accident, what hope do any of us have?
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Pretty much. A lot of my co-workers fly GA on the side, including a very good friend of mine. I respect everyone’s desire to do that, but I decided awhile ago I’m sticking with sportscars and mountain bikes for my hobbies.
 
The so-called impossible turn, is really a misnomer. It is merely a turn that you either possess the altitude to successfully complete when dead-stick, or that you don’t. Knowing what the AGL altitude ranges are, where you either commit to something in your 10 to 2 o’clock, to where you can make something in your 4 to 8 o’clock, and to where you can make a 210 degree-ish turn back to a landing surface (180 degrees + additional maneuvering for lineup), is key. These have to be practiced at altitude simulating a takeoff, and have to be fairly smoothly flown in terms of coordination. Any severe out of trim or yanking/banking of the controls will only artificially increase your descent rate

A turn back to an airport in and of itself, is not an impossible thing. It is merely a maneuver like any other where knowing your energy state you possess, vs knowing the energy you will require to accomplish how much of the above turn examples you require, and performed smoothly for minimum altitude loss which means having practiced doing so to make it habit in a stress situation; are all key.
 
Murdoughnut said:
Damn. I always praised him for being the anti-Gryder/Blonco•tardo. If that guy could die in a GA accident, what hope do any of us have?
Click to expand...

All of us have hope. That is part and parcel from the fact that any of us could be injured or killed in an aircraft accident, whether by something within our control, whether something we do, or whether something outside of our control or something someone else does.

That said, am not looking forward to those two safety-snakes blancornholio and Dan Grifter to start their ambulance chasing on this one.
 
With a high time engine in my Cherokee 140, I'm strictly a day, VFR, flatlander, and avoid large cities. The engine failure on takeoff scenario requires you know your aircraft and have practiced the turn a few times. Then add a couple hundred feet for the oh • factor. Have to be self disciplined enough to calculate your MSL turn around altitude each takeoff. I rarely do. It blows my mind that a pilot with such high standing and level of experience could make the fatal mistake. If it can happen to him it can happen to anyone. Very sad.
 
ChasenSFO said:
I've heard mixed things, depends who you ask. When a Mooney crashed doing the impossible turn at PAO a few years back, I met a CFI who was also a Professor of Physics at Stanford University. He apparently teaches his students that the turn isn't so impossible if you act immediately, slow down to the lowest controllable speed with a brisk yank on the stick,
Click to expand...

It depends on what you are flying, and how much energy you have. It is something we routinely practice in gliders from 200' AGL+. So, unless it is something you have done before, in that aircraft type, from similar altitude - an emergency isn't the time to find out if you can. In my Beechcraft, at local pattern altitude, I've tried, and I know it won't work. Airplanes tend to have much higher stall speeds, sink rates, and have lower load limits. So they need much more altitude.

Agree with the professor, slow quickly, lots of bank and don't waste time. Most importantly, turn into the wind.
 
I mean we can all debate it. Maybe push to 0.5g so you can roll quicker. Most people ignore the fact it's a 360 turn. 180 will point you from where you came but at a diameter from the runway. So you have to turn back again to land.

Just say no.
 
MikeD said:
The so-called impossible turn, is really a misnomer. It is merely a turn that you either possess the altitude to successfully complete when dead-stick, or that you don’t. Knowing what the AGL altitude ranges are, where you either commit to something in your 10 to 2 o’clock, to where you can make something in your 4 to 8 o’clock, and to where you can make a 210 degree-ish turn back to a landing surface (180 degrees + additional maneuvering for lineup), is key. These have to be practiced at altitude simulating a takeoff, and have to be fairly smoothly flown in terms of coordination. Any severe out of trim or yanking/banking of the controls will only artificially increase your descent rate

A turn back to an airport in and of itself, is not an impossible thing. It is merely a maneuver like any other where knowing your energy state you possess, vs knowing the energy you will require to accomplish how much of the above turn examples you require, and performed smoothly for minimum altitude loss which means having practiced doing so to make it habit in a stress situation; are all key.
Click to expand...

Honestly, this should be apart of a single engine departure briefing at this point. It needs to be taken into consideration just as we discuss engine failure prior to/after V1 in the aircraft we operate.
 
As someone who lost an engine (on a light twin) right after takeoff at night with the gear up and the landing straight on the runway option gone, I gotta say the heat-of-the-moment crap is real. I’m not sure how much you can train that. In a single engine? You can practice chopping the power all day long and turning back, but you’ll mentally know the power is still there and you’ll add power to recover if needed.

Actual Emergency? That goes out the window.
 
ahw01 said:
I mean we can all debate it. Maybe push to 0.5g so you can roll quicker. Most people ignore the fact it's a 360 turn. 180 will point you from where you came but at a diameter from the runway. So you have to turn back again to land.

Just say no.
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A good point, though I figured at least getting back to an airport environment minimized the chances of encountering terrain or buildings.

One of you guys smarter than me also solve this one for me ... let's say you're taking off from a runway with an intersecting runway of the same length, making a perfect "+" sign. More efficient/better to try and put it down on the runway you just departed, or make a 270-degree turn to the intersecting runway?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
As someone who lost an engine (on a light twin) right after takeoff at night with the gear up and the landing straight on the runway option gone, I gotta say the heat-of-the-moment crap is real. I’m not sure how much you can train that. In a single engine? You can practice chopping the power all day long and turning back, but you’ll mentally know the power is still there and you’ll add power to recover if needed.

Actual Emergency? That goes out the window.
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I was talking to a regional captain the other day who said there were only two planes he'd never fly. One was the Baron, because he said it killed a friend of his where the NTSB determined he only had about four seconds to react before Vmc roll. Not sure if that's true in general, but I can see taking that long to figure out what the frick is going on.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
It depends on what you are flying, and how much energy you have. It is something we routinely practice in gliders from 200' AGL+. So, unless it is something you have done before, in that aircraft type, from similar altitude - an emergency isn't the time to find out if you can. In my Beechcraft, at local pattern altitude, I've tried, and I know it won't work.
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This is the key. You have to know your airplane, practice the maneuver, and pre-brief your turn back altitude before every departure if you want to have this as a tool in the box.

In the PC12 with the ability to feather the prop you were more likely to end up high than anything on a turn back. Of course the sim center had gotten real namby pamby about it by the time I was going through and had you use some absurdly high altitude for it-I forget exactly how high.

In the Hershey bar wing PA32 your turn back altitude was probably about the time you finished your turn from crosswind to downwind
 
ChasenSFO said:
This sucks. Far and away, I thought he was the only "YouTube ASI" who always kept it factual and professional. A real loss to the aviation community, and a reminder that if an emergency in a Cessna can take out a guy like him, the rest of us probably wouldn't walk away either. You never know.


I've heard mixed things, depends who you ask. When a Mooney crashed doing the impossible turn at PAO a few years back, I met a CFI who was also a Professor of Physics at Stanford University. He apparently teaches his students that the turn isn't so impossible if you act immediately, slow down to the lowest controllable speed with a brisk yank on the stick, then do a minimum-radius turn largely with the rudder while diving for energy both so you don't stall the wing and so you make it back to the runway. Since he told me that, I practiced it a few times (at the New Jerusalem Airport near Tracy, CA where myths get busted), and while it is very involved and for sure requires a lot of focus, it seems very doable if you have 200-300ft to play with. That said, of course, it requires an instantaneous commitment and kinda feels like an aerobatic maneuver, so I'd personally just put it in a field if one was roughly along my present heading. But as I can't swim, if water was the alternative, I think I'd rather take my chances with the "Nope, teardrop" option. It has led to a lot of accidents, but I've also read plenty of success stories. Just depends where you're going to end up if not the runway. Over dense residential, maybe its worth a shot IF you are confident you can pull it off and not doing so means hitting a house. With a strong tailwind or a plane with a wacky CG or something, of course, probably not a good idea.
Click to expand...
I don’t think yeeting back on the stick and trying to turn with rudder is a recipe for success
 
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