Another unresponsive plane over the Atlantic-TBM 700

[MikeD]

and I know a pilot on this forum who regularly flies with oxygen procured from a local fire department.

Medical oxygen from the fire department?

Also I wanted to add, I am not sure anyone has picked up on this, but when the controller issued the descent to F250 he also issued a traffic call at F240. With the benefit of hindsight, I think the pilot is already sounding hypoxic by his second or third transition, but I don't know if I would have picked up on that if I were working the sector. In this case I think the pilot failed to convey the urgency of the situation to the controller when he said he had an "incorrect reading." Personally, if I think there is any hint of something wrong, I will give that aircraft priority whether it has declared an emergency or not, but in the heat of the moment, I do not know if I would have done anything different. That being said, I would emphasize the fact that it is not the controllers ass on the line, it is yours. If you need to deviate from a clearance for safety politely, inform the controller of your intentions and do what you have to do. We are not the police, and I do not know any controllers who would violate a pilot unless they were forced to.

"Incorrect reading" is something that, had I been hearing it, would've led me to believe the situation to be more of a nuisance or inconvenience, rather than something that's an emergency. I agree that urgency may not have been apparent, especially if the controller is working other traffic. The onus is on the pilot to convey the urgency that he feels he is dealing with, before its too late.

 

[genot]

Sounds like a nuisance at first blush and I'd let it go at that, but starting at 6:30, he's leaning on the PTT. By 7:30 the pilot is clearly out of breath and by 8:30 he's nearly unresponsive. I hate to Monday morning quarterback, but a pilot requesting lower is 99.9% of the time is either due to oxygen, icing or clouds. It isn't often a pilot will sacrifice altitude due to a pending problem. My first instinct may not have been to ask if he needed assistance, but after that call at 6:30 guarantee I'd be primed to further descend the guy and I'd be in his ear about what the reading was.

I didn't pick up on hypoxia by his voice until about 7:30 in FWIW. The pilot didn't fail to convey the situation. The pilot was likely hypoxic before check in and wasn't in a physiological state to know what was happening. He didn't really have a chance to coherently declare. He probably didn't have a second thought about it. The transmission at 8:45 is the final straw to me. I'm declaring for the pilot and using super simple terms to make the houses get bigger.

 

[greg1016]

Medical oxygen from the fire department?

.

I never asked, but I assumed it was the same oxygen the firefighters would be using when entering a burning building, whether that is medical oxygen, I do not know.

 

[MikeD]

I didn't pick up on hypoxia by his voice until about 7:30 in FWIW. The pilot didn't fail to convey the situation. The pilot was likely hypoxic before check in and wasn't in a physiological state to know what was happening. He didn't really have a chance to coherently declare. He probably didn't have a second thought about it. The transmission at 8:45 is the final straw to me. I'm declaring for the pilot and using super simple terms to make the houses get bigger.

He still failed to convey the situation; not failure in a negative way, but failure in that it simply wasn't done. It may not have been due to an oversight, and may have been due to an inability, but the fact remains that the urgency wasn't conveyed clearly for whatever reason. Very possibly the hypoxia.

I don't blame ATC either, since controller experience level and amount of workload at the time can easily play into whether the particular controller picks up on the clues within the transmissions.

 

[Joshwa]

The type of breathing apparatus firefighters use doesn't use oxygen but compressed air. The reasons for this I trust are obvious.

 

[Vector4Food]

On arrival into Kingston today, some dork was asking "So where's the wreckage? Y'all find it yet?" to approach.

@Vector4Food - is there some sort of joint pilot-controller task force we could enjoin to "take care" of people like this?

Sure

Long as we're stringing up that Myles Obrien for throwing the controller under the bus for just a few lines from liveatc

 

[derg]

Sure

Long as we're stringing up that Myles Obrien for throwing the controller under the bus for just a few lines from liveatc

I'm playing the live ATC and it didn't seem apparently that he had an emergency and needed to descend. It really seemed like more of a request.

Generally if something is bad and we need to do something, of course depending on the severity of the situation, I'm going to "DO" and then report what it is rather than trying to make ATC play a guessing game.

 

[MikeD]

The type of breathing apparatus firefighters use doesn't use oxygen but compressed air. The reasons for this I trust are obvious.

That's what I was asking; whether he was talking SCBA air, or EMS medical oxygen; that the aircraft oxygen tanks were getting serviced with.

 

[RDoug]

I've had situations in which a pilot "request" had to be turned down because short of a declaration of an emergency there wasn't anything I could legally do. Yes, I can bust a rule or two during an emergency. Done it many a time, even going so far as to declare the emergency from my end to justify what I was about to do (but just try to teach that as a technique to a new controller). I cannot however arbitrarily bust rules to comply with a pilot request, and that's all this was at the time. This whole discussion reminds me of the Avianca 52 fiasco, in which the pilot was hinting around at low fuel when he should have been declaring emergency fuel but the controller took all the heat in the press.

There's a reason for the ICAO terms Mayday and Pan. Hinting that something is wrong and letting the controller decide how to respond is putting your life into the hands of someone who most likely doesn't know your situation.

 

[tomokc]

"Pan" was explained to me years ago in primary training, but I've never heard it used, either in flight or in a post-incident discussion as this.

I'm thinking that I'm either OK or not, and if not, I'm using the "M" or "E" words. Why and when "Pan?"

 

[fholbert]

I'm thinking that I'm either OK or not, and if not, I'm using the "M" or "E" words. Why and when "Pan?"

The one time I heard a pan pan was a student lost with 3 hours fuel. Good use I felt.

 

[Mark815]

We are not the police, and I do not know any controllers who would violate a pilot unless they were forced to.

I wish more pilots would understand this. When I was a CFI I ran into way too many guys during flight reviews that were afraid of even using ATC because for some reason they believed they were sky police.

 

[greg1016]

That's what I was asking; whether he was talking SCBA air, or EMS medical oxygen; that the aircraft oxygen tanks were getting serviced with.

Yeah, didn't even think of that, it is definitely medical oxygen and not compressed air.

 

[Itchy]

I can see in 50 years from now, a way for ATC to take control of a non responsive aircraft. It would be a handy feature, so long as it can be overridden by the crew.

 

[RDoug]

"Pan" was explained to me years ago in primary training, but I've never heard it used, either in flight or in a post-incident discussion as this.

I'm thinking that I'm either OK or not, and if not, I'm using the "M" or "E" words. Why and when "Pan?"

"Pan" is used to indicate an urgent situation below one requiring immediate assistance or which involves an imminent threat to the safety of the aircraft, crew, and passengers. Think "Pan fuel" (minimum fuel, don't screw around with me too much) versus "Mayday fuel" (get me on the ground now!). ICAO recommends the use of "Pan" and "Mayday," and discourages the use of "Declaring an emergency," because the former is universal and the latter is an Americanism. When I worked ICAO (R.A.F. Lakenheath) back in the '70s I heard "Pan, Pan, Pan" a lot. Over here in the U.S. I've heard it maybe twice in my entire career.

 

[greg1016]

I wish more pilots would understand this. When I was a CFI I ran into way too many guys during flight reviews that were afraid of even using ATC because for some reason they believed they were sky police.

I encounter this a lot in my travels, private pilots that avoid ATC like the plague. There are some controllers who are quicker to give a lecture or tongue lashing to a pilot than others, but even those guys don't want to do the paperwork involved with turning a pilot in. Personally, the only way I violate a pilot is if my supervisor finds out about it (snitch goes off, a TCAS RA is triggered, or something of that nature). We are all human, and mistakes are made sometimes.

The last time I saw a pilot get the number, he was cleared to deviate 20deg left after departure due to weather. He took it upon himself to turn on course (about a 60 degree right turn) without a clearance or even notify the controller of what he was doing, and it put him head on with an aircraft that was basically descending on a 45 to the right downwind of the active runway. The inbound aircraft was probably 50 miles and three or four thousand vertical feet, but they were head on and cleared through eachothers altitudes. It surprised the controller, and he vectored the departing aircraft to resolve the conflict, but he was not happy and he was making his displeasure known off the frequency. The sup overheard, and he was instructed to give out the number, but I am sure that had the supervisor not overheard, even that guy would not have gotten the number.

 

[herik54555]

Horrible. Everyone watching their impending demise and not a damn thing anyone could do about it. A real tragedy.


That's pretty harsh for a simple, and until that comment respectful, debate.

There shouldn't be a debate! It's a matter of doing the right thing. When some pilot ends up killing someone due to a frozen regulator or lines how exactly do you think that will play out when your standing in front of a judge for manslaughter?

 

[SteveC]

There shouldn't be a debate! It's a matter of doing the right thing. When some pilot ends up killing someone due to a frozen regulator or lines how exactly do you think that will play out when your standing in front of a judge for manslaughter?

Debate is good, as long as everyone stays respectful. We're all just hanging out in Doug's virtual living room and he doesn't particularly enjoy when people get all up in each others faces and spill drinks on the carpet and such.

 

[herik54555]

Debate is good, as long as everyone stays respectful. We're all just hanging out in Doug's virtual living room and he doesn't particularly enjoy when people get all up in each others faces and spill drinks on the carpet and such.

Gotcha, I just don't see the reasoning in cutting corners especially on something that is meant as a life saving device! If someone is cutting corners to save a few bucks here, what else are they doing to save money?

 

[kiloalpha]

Gotcha, I just don't see the reasoning in cutting corners especially on something that is meant as a life saving device! If someone is cutting corners to save a few bucks here, what else are they doing to save money?

Exactly... I was at a TBMOPA meeting a few years ago. Pratt and Whitney had techs and engineers out explaining how engine washes every 100 hours were beneficial and would save an owner money in the long haul... However there were 5 or so owners asking "can I do this myself? Do I need to do this every 100 hours? Can I just do it once a year?" I mean come on guys, sure you bought the airplane to save some money on fuel, but it's the only engine you got. you need to take care of it.