Another unresponsive plane over the Atlantic-TBM 700

As far as the higher cost for aviator's oxygen goes - what price do you put on your life? If you can afford fly something pressurized (or for that matter, something that can get up high enough to need O2), you can probably afford to guy the right kind of oxygen to take along. If you don't want to spend the money, either fly lower, or drive. Not going to risk my life and the lives of my passengers to save a few bucks.
 
I think you guys are too quick to blame the owner/operator.

Being in a cabin that small and having a rapid decompression must be really violent compared with a larger airframe. I imagine all kind of things are leaving you body, not just air. It might be temporally disabling. Cops use flash bang devises to stun the bad guys, I'll bet the rapid decompression is similar. If it takes 15 seconds to regain you composure, your heart is beating like crazy, you may be unconscious before you understand what just happened.

No one is asking why was the pilot waiting for lower altitude.
 
*If* he knew the plane was losing the cabin ("I need lower") it sucks he did not have urgency to just power back and declare. I have seen it before where folks are hesitant to declare for some reason. But perhaps hypoxia had already set in on that call and was twisting logic.
Tragic.
 
Parafiddle said:
As far as the higher cost for aviator's oxygen goes - what price do you put on your life? If you can afford fly something pressurized (or for that matter, something that can get up high enough to need O2), you can probably afford to guy the right kind of oxygen to take along. If you don't want to spend the money, either fly lower, or drive. Not going to risk my life and the lives of my passengers to save a few bucks.
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But it is the right kind of oxygen. That's the point!

I can and have had my o2 bottle filled for $75 at the jet center and $10 at the surgical supply, same bottle. At the jet center they removed the welding torch to fill my bottle. I'm not the smartest guy in the world but the $75 lesson was learned in one refill and I never did that again.

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It's not a matter of the quality of O2 it's the fact that aviators oxygen has all the moisture removed thus preventing the regulator from freezing when • hits the fan....
 
herik54555 said:
It's not a matter of the quality of O2 it's the fact that aviators oxygen has all the moisture removed thus preventing the regulator from freezing when hits the fan....
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Me thinks you've been watching 12 O'clock High.

twelve-oclock-high-3.jpg
 
Flew MCO-SJO-FLL today. Heard some crazy stuff on guard today. Captain and me were trying to figure out what the heck was going on. Havana Center was a little off their game(and that is unusual).
 
Oh and stop going to cheap ass jet centers! Any respectable fbo will have an entire cart devoted to just aviators oxygen so...It speaks volumes to your decision making as a pilot by one not demanding aviators o2 but then making the comment about getting it from a med supply store??? Were you dropped on your head as a child? I really could care less what you do as long you only kill yourself, I feel for whatever pax you fly...poor bastards
 
@herik54555, play nice with others here.
I just read the AvWeb article posted above. Prior to this I would have stated that there was a big difference between the O2's; now I'm not so sure.
Aviation O2 for our aircraft all the time....but I'm not footing the bill either.
 
herik54555 said:
Oh and stop going to cheap ass jet centers! Any respectable fbo will have an entire cart devoted to just aviators oxygen so...It speaks volumes to your decision making as a pilot by one not demanding aviators o2 but then making the comment about getting it from a med supply store??? Were you dropped on your head as a child? I really could care less what you do as long you only kill yourself, I feel for whatever pax you fly...poor bastards
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Next time you see one of those carts of bottles see if you can find a sticker that says Aviation Oxygen.

I see those carts all the time too. They are the same green bottles we used for cutting torches during time I was involved in building high rises.

p6190067.jpg
 
fholbert said:
Being in a cabin that small and having a rapid decompression must be really violent compared with a larger airframe. I imagine all kind of things are leaving you body, not just air. It might be temporally disabling. Cops use flash bang devises to stun the bad guys, I'll bet the rapid decompression is similar. If it takes 15 seconds to regain you composure, your heart is beating like crazy, you may be unconscious before you understand what just happened.
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What difference would the size of the cabin make? I did a rapid decompression in an altitude chamber... not that dramatic. In fact you might not even notice it, which could actually be the problem.
 
Horrible. Everyone watching their impending demise and not a damn thing anyone could do about it. A real tragedy.

herik54555 said:
Oh and stop going to cheap ass jet centers! Any respectable fbo will have an entire cart devoted to just aviators oxygen so...It speaks volumes to your decision making as a pilot by one not demanding aviators o2 but then making the comment about getting it from a med supply store??? Were you dropped on your head as a child? I really could care less what you do as long you only kill yourself, I feel for whatever pax you fly...poor bastards
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That's pretty harsh for a simple, and until that comment respectful, debate.
 
thevideographer said:
What difference would the size of the cabin make? I did a rapid decompression in an altitude chamber... not that dramatic. In fact you might not even notice it, which could actually be the problem.
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The smaller the cabin, the quicker the depressurization.
 
On arrival into Kingston today, some dork was asking "So where's the wreckage? Y'all find it yet?" to approach.

@Vector4Food - is there some sort of joint pilot-controller task force we could enjoin to "take care" of people like this?
 
fholbert said:
Me thinks you've been watching 12 O'clock High.
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Welding grade oxygen can easily contain high levels of contaminates, such as acetylene, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide or nitrous oxides, that may lead to user poisoning. Welding grade oxygen cylinders are actually filled with the same USP (United States Pharmacopoeia) oxygen grade as supplied for aviation or medical grade cylinders. The difference is that welding grade cylinders are not evacuated into a vacuum between fills and thus run the risk of containing contaminates (most notably acetylene) left over from improper use or closing by the previous owner.

Aviation and medical grade oxygen is actually the same USP (United States Pharmacopoeia) oxygen grade material. The difference between the two grades actually is in the handling of the finished gas cylinder and the processing of the gas going into the cylinder.

Also, Aviation grade oxygen undergoes an additional drying process to prevent freezing at high altitudes where this gas is commonly utilized. The moisture content of aviation grade oxygen will be guaranteed and the cost of aviation grade oxygen is usually higher than that of medical grade oxygen. Medical grade oxygen cylinders are filled with the same gas as aviation grade cylinder less the extra moisture processing. Medical grade oxygen is handled and regulated in the same manner as a prescription drug so some users may have difficulty in obtaining this grade of gas.

Most welding or Industrial grade oxygen cylinders are filled with USP oxygen without an evacuation-between-fills step.

Respiratory grade oxygen cylinders are filled with USP oxygen with an evacuation-between-fills step.

Medical grade oxygen cylinders are filled with USP oxygen with an evacuation-between-fills step
(Some states differentiate between a respiratory and medical grade. Typically, the cylinder contents are the exactly the same, but the label is different. Historically, this was done to avoid prescription requirements for emergency/rescue organizations using pure oxygen respirators.)

Aviation grade oxygen cylinders are filled with USP oxygen that has undergone additional drying steps with an evacuation-between-fills step. The low quantity of water is a precaution against oxygen line freezing that might occur with higher water content at the chilled temperatures found at altitude. (Typically, "regulator freeze-up" is a result of chilled water vapor within the gas mix condensing and then freezing ... a chunk of ice may block gas flow or interfere with mechanical operation of valve/regulator mechanisms. So, lowering water vapor content of a gas mixture lessens the likelihood of a "freeze-up.")
 
fholbert said:
Next time you see one of those carts of bottles see if you can find a sticker that says Aviation Oxygen.

I see those carts all the time too. They are the same green bottles we used for cutting torches during time I was involved in building high rises.

p6190067.jpg
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All this number refers to (UN1072), is the DOT chemical compound identification number which is always 1072. This is a reference to the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) which lists physical properties, special handling precautions, chemical reactivity, health hazards, waste disposal and transportation requirements for the cylinder contents. (US OSHA regulations mandate that all chemicals sold in the US be accompanied by a MSDS to facilitate safety when handling purchased chemical materials.)

The term/wording Oxygen, Compressed USP means this cylinder contains compressed oxygen gas that meets the purity standards for human use as defined by the United States Pharmacopoeia (USP). There are a plethora of specific regulations as to oxygen used for medical purposes and devices, including regulations for the processes and the facilities, however. (remember that "medical" is not the same as "aviation" and "welding" oxygen should not be used for aviation oxygen either) So just stating that all oxygen is the same and can always be used for human consumption is not exactly correct. Could welder's oxygen be used in an emergency if nothing else was available, I suppose so. But that is not it's purpose for the reasons listed in my two posts, nor my understanding of this subject. (and why welders grade oxygen is not used for medical purposes)
 
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I second @fholbert on the oxygen issue, and I know a pilot on this forum who regularly flies with oxygen procured from a local fire department. In the experimental market, there are a number of reasonably priced, non-pressurized airplanes that are capable of cruising in flight levels. As an emergency device, I would probably go with aviation oxygen, but I would feel perfectly confident using alternate sources for oxygen in non-emergency situations. The whole oxygen debate assumes the pilot recognized he was suffering from hypoxia before his rational decision making was affected. I do not believe that is the case from what I have seen or read.

Also I wanted to add, I am not sure anyone has picked up on this, but when the controller issued the descent to F250 he also issued a traffic call at F240. With the benefit of hindsight, I think the pilot is already sounding hypoxic by his second or third transition, but I don't know if I would have picked up on that if I were working the sector. In this case I think the pilot failed to convey the urgency of the situation to the controller when he said he had an "incorrect reading." Personally, if I think there is any hint of something wrong, I will give that aircraft priority whether it has declared an emergency or not, but in the heat of the moment, I do not know if I would have done anything different. That being said, I would emphasize the fact that it is not the controllers ass on the line, it is yours. If you need to deviate from a clearance for safety politely, inform the controller of your intentions and do what you have to do. We are not the police, and I do not know any controllers who would violate a pilot unless they were forced to.
 
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