Inverted
mmmmmm wine
I HIGHLY doubt AL would allow it either, but who knows...
Ameriflight memories, trauma
- Thread starter Cal Goat
- Start date
I HIGHLY doubt AL would allow it either, but who knows...
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
One of the things that always kind of made my eye twitch at OAK was that certain pilots apparently weren't trusted to do certain runs either because of perceived time concerns or weather factors. I thought we were all trained to the same standard, but it seems like that once necessarily the opinion of some people making decisions on the schedule.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
I wonder if that is an OAKism... I totally remember what you are talking about.
D
Deleted member 27505
Guest
Is that because of the kind of flying done at AMF (e.g. mountain at Wx altitudes) or because of the auto-didact, go-whenever-asked attitude? Because from what folks have been saying, it sure doesn't sound like it's due to the equipment or training. Most of the AMF guys I know are good, solid pilots... and some are retarded • bags... and a few are rock stars. Kinda like the breakdown everywhere else. So what makes them more desirable to the regionals than any other pilots with similar experience (other than, apparently, their proven ability to tolerate intolerable bosses)? Is it just an easy proxy for the regional HR folks...i.e. a low work, low risk decision that the peg is round and will fit in the round hole?
I mean, those HR folks seem to have no shame. They took me, and I had only SIC hours in single-pilot aircraft with lots of sunny-day-only XC time back and forth between my many spectacular vacation homes.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
The fact is, the regionals are really going to hire anyone qualified right now. There are some regionals I have heard of that won't sim you if you came from a place like AMF. My guess is that they would extend that "no sim" policy to other freight operations, or any other background they see fit. But they will interview from anywhere if they meet the qualifications. I am happy to see my friends move into the regionals as I think it is a huge QOL increase, but I always found it funny that certain management would say things like "you play your cards right, and fly at AMF for 3-4 years, you can go to any regional you want." The reality is that we could have all gone to the regionals instead of AMF had we been so inclined.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Because freight dogs RULE!Is that because of the kind of flying done at AMF (e.g. mountain at Wx altitudes) or because of the auto-didact, go-whenever-asked attitude? Because from what folks have been saying, it sure doesn't sound like it's due to the equipment or training. Most of the AMF guys I know are good, solid pilots... and some are retarded bags... and a few are rock stars. Kinda like the breakdown everywhere else. So what makes them more desirable to the regionals than any other pilots with similar experience (other than, apparently, their proven ability to tolerate intolerable bosses)? Is it just an easy proxy for the regional HR folks...i.e. a low work, low risk decision that the peg is round and will fit in the round hole?
I mean, those HR folks seem to have no shame. They took me, and I had only SIC hours in single-pilot aircraft with lots of sunny-day-only XC time back and forth between my many spectacular vacation homes.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
I don't think that was specific to OAK. I saw some degree of that at a few bases during my time there. Nothing wrong with it, IMO. The freight has to move- some pilots may not be suitable for some runs for a variety of reasons.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree entirely but I believe that is sometimes an excuse for being slow(er than the rest).
But then, how do you define "by the book?" I mostly flew by the book I think, and so did the vast majority I'm sure. The couple of pseudo-carpet dances that I got* were for doing things not by the book. I don't feel that management (at least while I was there) encouraged flying "outside" of the book in any way- quite the opposite actually.
* #1- Unplugged my GPU, removed chocks and cones, battery started my Metro and taxied off the nearly empty UPS ramp without a team of marshallers because I had been on duty 14+ hours and was frozen and pissed off and of course they were nowhere to be found.
#2- After an engine in the Metro rolled back to flight idle in cruise at FL190, I shut it down with the stop&feather instead of running the precautionary shutdown checklist (my ACP- a Metro check airman backed me).
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
Is that because of the kind of flying done at AMF (e.g. mountain at Wx altitudes) or because of the auto-didact, go-whenever-asked attitude? Because from what folks have been saying, it sure doesn't sound like it's due to the equipment or training. Most of the AMF guys I know are good, solid pilots... and some are retarded bags... and a few are rock stars. Kinda like the breakdown everywhere else. So what makes them more desirable to the regionals than any other pilots with similar experience (other than, apparently, their proven ability to tolerate intolerable bosses)? Is it just an easy proxy for the regional HR folks...i.e. a low work, low risk decision that the peg is round and will fit in the round hole?
I mean, those HR folks seem to have no shame. They took me, and I had only SIC hours in single-pilot aircraft with lots of sunny-day-only XC time back and forth between my many spectacular vacation homes.
I wouldn't read too much into it. It was just our director of flight ops trying to make us feel like we hadn't made a mistake by accepting the job.
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
EGGSACTLEE
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
It creates an unstable standard in my mind. Our ACP used to switch me to certain runs when other pilots [apparently] didn't inspire confidence because he said he trusted me... which was weird because I failed my initial 135 check ride there (oral, not the flying part). @Inverted is absolutely right that pilots who played by rules (AMF's rules, mind you) could never be on time and got pulled off of the more demanding runs.
From day 1 of indoc the culture was made very clear: don't check anything at the layover that could be broken (lights, mostly). And a lot of "I'm not saying you should do this, but..."
The scheduling of the runs was ridiculous. A pilot (not necessarily me) had to pencil whip the W&B slips (usually at the beginning of the day) just to avoid extensive (but inevitable) delays. I don't recall any of the runs ever really being on schedule except on rare days. And of course it was company policy to make up a delay code that blamed anyone and anything except AMF (WX and ATC were favorites).
I once inquired as to why the schedules weren't adjusted to more realistic times and was met with the response that the drivers would only show up later if we changed the times. Not crazy unsafe stuff, just a stupid system that had no integrity. And part of the reason I left was because I just couldn't respect the system.
Now, at my regional airline job, we can manage 18 minute turns while transferring 30 passengers, fuel, and luggage... doing manual W&Bs that are as accurate as the FAR's permit... doing everything by the book... No games, just a system that works on its own integrity.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Well, somehow myself, and the majority of other pilots I worked with managed to do things by the book and still be on time. I think an ACP is well within his right to assign runs to the people who can best accomplish them. It's a business, not flight school.
Really? I haven't checked an exterior light on a layover since I was a private pilot student. What's the point, exactly? If it's going to blow, it's probably going to do it the next time you throw the switch. Same with a number of other preflight items. Check the essentials and kill-you-quick stuff and don't be stupid, but don't do a phase inspection at each layover.
Yeah, like the airlines don't do that.
Heard that before. Translates to: couldn't hack it.
lol, yeah with a huge amount of support. At AMF you were on your own. "Integrity" and "regional airline" in the same sentence.. that's funny. I'm starting to remember why I drifted away from JC in the first place...
eightballfreight
Mission accomplished
I really don't know the AMF @EatSleepFly is talking about. The AMF I know is spot on to what @Cal Goat speaks.
In regards to runs, I think it was mostly you flew what was vacant when you arrived and after awhile you are the guy who does runs a, b, c, &d. Not hard and fast but I think he keeps people knowledgeable on a few runs at a time. Obviously I have seen those slow, by the book, write up the plane when it is broke guys get pulled off certain runs. Hell, I've been bumped off runs so a guy who had zero experience on it could be line checked on it.
In regards to runs, I think it was mostly you flew what was vacant when you arrived and after awhile you are the guy who does runs a, b, c, &d. Not hard and fast but I think he keeps people knowledgeable on a few runs at a time. Obviously I have seen those slow, by the book, write up the plane when it is broke guys get pulled off certain runs. Hell, I've been bumped off runs so a guy who had zero experience on it could be line checked on it.
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Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
Of course he was within his right, but that doesn't change the fact that it washes out the concept of a single standard. Either you can fly to the company standard or you can't. Especially at place like AMF where there's nobody to tap you on the shoulder if you're about to fly yourself into a mountain side.
Yeah, like the airlines don't do that.
Not at my airline. Seriously.
And there it is. Classic AMF dick-measuring. Guess what, Chuck Yeager: I don't need your approval. I was there, I played the game, I snooozed on the filthy mattress in the neglected crew apartments, I froze my ass off waiting for drivers late at night, I scared myself at night in the ice. I don't need to go around bragging that I was freight dawg and pretend like it was all cool.
I didn't get fired. I didn't flunk out. I got tired of the BS. That's what seems to send most people packing at that place. Call it whatever you want, but that's my deal. Nobody wants to make AMF a career and the few that do tend to look like they've suffered a few rounds of shock-therapy and can barely hold a normal, human conversation.
lol, yeah with a huge amount of support. At AMF you were on your own. "Integrity" and "regional airline" in the same sentence.. that's funny. I'm starting to remember why I drifted away from JC in the first place...
It's cool. You've got your opinion and can feel good about it. All I'm saying is that AMF has a bunch of pilots that I know personally who are frustrated with the company and they keep sending me messages asking about my airline. Maybe there is a bit of BS at this level, but it the QOL (at this place, not all regionals) is amazingly better. I can't even convey how much more civilized this world is.
But, ya know... I couldn't hack it.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Hell, the place had plenty of problems when I was there. I could start a whole thread. I'm just saying I don't think it is (or at least was) as bad as you seem to portray it. Looking back on it, I think it was even less dysfunctional than the frac I flew for at times. Everywhere has it's fair share of BS.
How long were you there and what did you fly?
How long were you there and what did you fly?
spbrian
Well-Known Member
Quite often at most of the bases the turns were bid and scheduled to a "normal" day, generally fair weather and a normal load in/out. If the load was greater than 'normal" or the weather poor then yes, it would be hard to make the times.
But there are ways to expedite things while fully complying with all company rules and still make the runs happen on time... Pre-doing as much information as known on the weight and balance sheet for the next leg prior to landing, setting up radios and navaids for the next departure on the taxi in... Then there is knowing full well how to make the most of every single rule we have, know which ones you can utilize on that leg or that day to cut time off... Also then there is knowing the plane, knowing that you can fly outbound at 200 knots on a procedure turn for 1:20 minute, throw to flight idle, slow to 140 and do a 90/270 instead of the standard hook procedure turn are all items that shave minutes off the runs...
Then a general work ethic, there are some people who just took time loading and unloading, which truly is a great thing to be cognizant about, the last thing to do is to get hurt loading but then there are people who after shutting off the engines are putting the cargo into the airplane like a frat party attacks a keg...
The turbines, especially the bigger ones how you fly the aircraft makes a huge difference... In a metro at higher weights there is no difference in time to climb and also climb rates when you climb the aircraft at 150 versus 190 (climb on props versus wing) but at the end of a long day and multiple legs (the longer flights) continually climbing the aircraft at max forward speed makes a huge time difference...
But, it is a different AMF than when I started there...
But there are ways to expedite things while fully complying with all company rules and still make the runs happen on time... Pre-doing as much information as known on the weight and balance sheet for the next leg prior to landing, setting up radios and navaids for the next departure on the taxi in... Then there is knowing full well how to make the most of every single rule we have, know which ones you can utilize on that leg or that day to cut time off... Also then there is knowing the plane, knowing that you can fly outbound at 200 knots on a procedure turn for 1:20 minute, throw to flight idle, slow to 140 and do a 90/270 instead of the standard hook procedure turn are all items that shave minutes off the runs...
Then a general work ethic, there are some people who just took time loading and unloading, which truly is a great thing to be cognizant about, the last thing to do is to get hurt loading but then there are people who after shutting off the engines are putting the cargo into the airplane like a frat party attacks a keg...
The turbines, especially the bigger ones how you fly the aircraft makes a huge difference... In a metro at higher weights there is no difference in time to climb and also climb rates when you climb the aircraft at 150 versus 190 (climb on props versus wing) but at the end of a long day and multiple legs (the longer flights) continually climbing the aircraft at max forward speed makes a huge time difference...
But, it is a different AMF than when I started there...
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
Yep. I have people I can call friends in the training dept, but he gives the vibe of a BUR check airmen.
eightballfreight
Mission accomplished
Your post brings up many safety concerns. Many of us can and do high speed approaches to perfect flight idle godliness, can taxi and dial in none essential freqs, but should we? Especially in the name of company on time performance.
No sir. I disagree.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Never flew out of BUR except maybe a tdy visit or two.
Guess things have just changed since I was there.
