Advice on landing the Arrow

[jhugz]

You can grease landings in the Arrow if you keep the power in a tiny bit until round out. I land the Arrow just like the Seneca. even if its 200rpm, if you chop the throttle your producing negative thrust, bump it up a couple hundred to around zero thrust and the plane lands much better.

OFF TOPIC: Let me just give you a tip from experience on this site. Change your avatar.

 

[29.92inHg]

Instead, you are going to add power when you are supposed to flare and fly just above the runway, as low as you are comfortable. Try to get it only a foot or so off the runway with level flight attitude, originally this will require more power and as you get into ground effect less and less will be needed the closer you get to the ground. Continue like this for a a pre determined distance, I usually use 2000' of runway or approximately half way on a 5000' runway.

From your predetermined point continue to reduce power further and keep pulling back with each slight increase more and more until the aircraft begins to sink again. Use your control with power to control that sink rate and settle nicely.

This is good advice. I use this technique anytime a student is having issues with landings. The reason a lot of people use power is because it gives you a bigger margin of error in the height judgment without the plop, thud, "This is gonna hurt" or whatever you want to call it. This exercise will really help your sight pictures and give you more muscle memory in the feel of that particular plane.

 

[29.92inHg]

OFF TOPIC: Let me just give you a tip from experience on this site. Change your avatar.

Isn't that the picture from the Hardcore IFRerr

 

[tgrayson]

as it was put to me to teach landings with power through the flare in certain planes/senarios.

Can you not stretch yourself beyond the training you received? It's like keeping the training wheels on your bike instead of learning to balance yourself properly.

 

[tgrayson]

I land the Arrow just like the Seneca

So do I, but I insist on closed throttles in the Seneca on short final, just like any other airplane. If you can perform a full-stall, full flaps, power-off landing in a Seneca, I suspect you can do it in just about anything.

 

[29.92inHg]

So do I, but I insist on closed throttles in the Seneca on short final, just like any other airplane. If you can perform a full-stall, full flaps, power-off landing in a Seneca, I suspect you can do it in just about anything.

:clap::yeahthat:

 

[tgrayson]

That's a pretty bold statement unless you have flown every airplane in existence.

No, but those who have assured me this was true on every piston engine airplane they have flown since WWII, which includes the heavy bombers. Since this experience is in accordance with theory, I think my generalization is on safe ground.

I have flown a single that if you fly it by the numbers on a short field landing and pull power out before the round-out you will run out of elevator before touchdown.

You have retreated from a broad generalization to a very specific instance. If you want to say that for every airplane there exists an airspeed for which there will not be enough elevator authority to flare the airplane, I will have to agree that this is trivially true. Whether this is true for the airplane you described at published approach speeds is an open question. It's quite possible that your running out of elevator is due to inadequate technique, which, of course, doesn't mean that you're a horrible pilot. I'm sure that the very best pilots in the world have a deficiency or two in some technique or another. No one can be good at everything.

 

[minitour]

No one can be good at everything.

Speak for yourself.

-mini

 

[Inverted]

I never liked the term negative thrust. I have heard it a few times and it makes no sense. I assume you mean drag. Anyways, I'm not trying to pick a fight, just wanted to make that statement. It sounds like your saying there is a beta range on an Arrow.

Makes perfect sense, it means the prop is producing more drag than thrust, hence why you sim feather a twin. there is a range where you can produce zero thrust zero drag.

Beta would be reverse thrust. Not negative thrust.

Avatar changed...

 

[jhugz]

Avatar changed...

You have no idea the headaches you saved yourself.

 

[tgrayson]

Beta would be reverse thrust. Not negative thrust.

The drag of a windmilling propeller is reverse or negative thrust, no different from beta mode. "Drag" and "reverse thrust" are not mutually exclusive terms; drag is any force which operates parallel and opposite to the flight path and reverse thrust certainly falls into that category.

 

[29.92inHg]

Makes perfect sense, it means the prop is producing more drag than thrust, hence why you sim feather a twin. there is a range where you can produce zero thrust zero drag.

Beta would be reverse thrust. Not negative thrust.

Avatar changed...

I get that, It just seems easier to call it drag. Its like saying at max power I have negative drag. Its all semantics and I get what it means, I just don't like the term. Its probably just me, so you can ignore me if you wish. By the way I like the new avatar a lot better, nice picture.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

What kind of Arrow is it ILSstud?

The old Arrows have the Hershey Bar wing; stubby and drops like a rock with no power. I have 150 hours flying a 68 Arrow just like this. I gotta go with the power thing: pulling it out on short final is a death sentence unless you are holding a high speed or higher than normal descent angle. I kept 11 inches of power into the flare and greased it in almost every time. Like others have said, Mains first, On Centerline, First 1/3rd of the runway are more important than a greaser.

Newer Arrows have a tapered wing that is a result of Piper overcompensating for the old Hershey Bar wing; they float forever. In this case, approach speed is crucial.

 

[Inverted]

The drag of a windmilling propeller is reverse or negative thrust, no different from beta mode. "Drag" and "reverse thrust" are not mutually exclusive terms; drag is any force which operates parallel and opposite to the flight path and reverse thrust certainly falls into that category.

No reverse thrust would be thrust created in the opposite direction. If I remember in the Pratt and Whitney manual for the PC-12 it states for reverse thrust to be created the blade angle has to go past fine pitch to about -20 degrees.

Drag overcomes thrust because of the paddling effect of the propeller blade at course pitch. That is not creating reverse thrust. That is creating excessive drag that overcomes the thrust, hence negative thrust.

29.92 it is semantics and have no problem calling it drag as opposed to negative thrust.

 

[minitour]

Intake drag.

-mini

 

[wjmiller3]

What kind of Arrow is it ILSstud?

The old Arrows have the Hershey Bar wing; stubby and drops like a rock with no power. I have 150 hours flying a 68 Arrow just like this. I gotta go with the power thing: pulling it out on short final is a death sentence unless you are holding a high speed or higher than normal descent angle. I kept 11 inches of power into the flare and greased it in almost every time. Like others have said, Mains first, On Centerline, First 1/3rd of the runway are more important than a greaser.

Newer Arrows have a tapered wing that is a result of Piper overcompensating for the old Hershey Bar wing; they float forever. In this case, approach speed is crucial.

We have two Piper singles, one hershey bar and one tapered. And you are exactly right my friend, there is a WORLD of difference in the way the two act. First time I flew the tapered I pulled power out in the middle of the roundout before the flare like I would on the hershey, and floated over a 1000'

 

[Giggity]

Arrow 2 or 3? Both you can pull out power before the roundout unless you fubar your landing spot...... Both arrows are very hard to keep the nose wheel up after the mains hit.

 

[ILSstud]

It's an Arrow II.

 

[Maurus]

I fly an Arrow II regularly. Fly final at 80-85MPH and use power to manage your decent. Remember the Arrow will will land a lot flatter than a Cessna so the flare wont be as excessive. The nose on the arrow can be heavy so be sure to leave the back pressure in after the mains touch, otherwise you will have a big thud up front.

I always pull my power when I have the field made. Once above the runway level the plane off and keep it off the runway till it can no longer fly. I get smooth landings every time with the technique.

 

[trafficinsight]

I use 80mph for the Arrow I and 75mph for the Arrow II and I get good landings regularly with power at idle.