Advice on landing the Arrow

[tgrayson]

Well money was also a factor, the Arrow is 25 more an hour than the Cessna, tough economy...

I still think the savings are dubious, considering that splitting your time between two different airplanes could easily end up requiring a bit more total flight time. Using the Arrow for maneuvers essentially gives you some takeoff and landing practice for almost free.

The only time I have had a student split his training is when he owned his own C172 and he could save far more than $25/hour.

 

[29.92inHg]

To me the secret is to greatly increase the rate of yoke pull back during the last 2-3 inches of yoke travel. By the point, you're unlikely to balloon because of the rapidity with which drag increases. If you fail to pull back fast enough, you lose too much stabilator authority with the decaying airspeed and will end up plunking down fairly solidly in a relatively flat attitude.

It takes a great deal of practice, but it is possible to get roll-on, nose high landings in the Arrow. And no, you don't need to leave any power in to make it happen.

This is how I do it, I had a couple commercial students at the same time and was teaching power off 180's when I worked it out.

 

[tlewis95]

Echoing the above. Power.

I carried power in until the end of the round out most of the time, and never really had a problem.

 

[PGT]

This is how I do it, I had a couple commercial students at the same time and was teaching power off 180's when I worked it out.

Power off 180 in the arrow with any sort of wind = Pull power and turn towards runway

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Which Arrow? By Cherokee Arrow, I would assume its the PA28R-180. Seemed to drop like a rock anytime there was no power in. Carry a bit of power, and it became much easier.

 

[mooneyguy]

Ive noticed most people tend to round out in the arrow a little to high (myself included). The arrow once you begin to flare loses airspeed and elev control very quickly. Thats why I think so many flop it on! as Tgrason said you can land it without carrying power. If your stabilized on the approach, and roundout/flare low enough you can land them nicely!

 

[tgrayson]

I carried power in until the end of the round out most of the time, and never really had a problem.

Nor did you increase your stick and rudder skills. It is shameful to carry power into the flare of a piston engine airplane, and it borders on a criminal act for an instructor to teach that to a student.

 

[Dynasty22]

I have noticed a tremendous difference going from a low wing airplane to a high wing airplane that the two land way different and sometimes, I truly believe that you have to keep a nudge of power in up in to the point of the flare.

 

[Winglet]

I did my Commercial ticket and my CFI on a Piper Arrow IV (the T-tail). I just started working with a student on his complex endorsment in the Arrow today as well (funny enough isnt it?)

Like many have said, pull the power and she will drop like a rock. I fly the plane to the ground. when you round out for the flare, bring the throttle back ALMOST to idle. Leave yourself with a little bit of thrust and that should do the trick. Once youre on the ground, cut to idle.

 

[ILSstud]

Nor did you increase your stick and rudder skills. It is shameful to carry power into the flare of a piston engine airplane, and it borders on a criminal act for an instructor to teach that to a student.

Keeping power during the flare...even a little..."criminal"? Sounds a bit harsh.

 

[trafficinsight]

plenty of Arrow time, the hardest ones are the short wing, short stabilator Arrow 1's, I've learned that they don't tolerate being even a little slow, they'll run out of stabilator authority and you'll thump it on pretty good. Make sure you nail the speed and you'll get some decent landings out of it

For a while I could get great landings out of the Arrow and I couldn't land anything else to save me!

 

[sdfcvoh]

I've found that 70 KIAS on short final with 40˚ flaps is a good approach to set you up for the landing. But... before you begin to flare you need to have removed the throttle.

The smoothest touchdowns come when you remove throttle in tandem with the round-out. Therefor your flare is done without power and it is simply an exercise to smooth out the touchdown and keep that heavy nose from clunking down.

 

[DPApilot]

When you're doing a power off 180 and you get a tiny bit low, pull the prop. It's a lifesaver!

 

[cefiro]

Is it the arrow your having trouble with or the transition to the right seat?

I had alot of trouble landing from the right seat when I initially started, looked like a student pilot landing.

 

[wjmiller3]

Nor did you increase your stick and rudder skills. It is shameful to carry power into the flare of a piston engine airplane, and it borders on a criminal act for an instructor to teach that to a student.

it depends on the plane....

 

[29.92inHg]

Power off 180 in the arrow with any sort of wind = Pull power and turn towards runway

It does have the glide ratio of a rock, and God forbid your gear is already down, but it really helps you feel out the flare without having to carry power, which also plays into a better short field landing. In the context of a CFI checkride, you really can't have all of you landings include power.

 

[tgrayson]

it depends on the plane....

I doubt it. The landing maneuver is merely a large-radius, small load factor pull up maneuver that any airplane can do. One of the greatest obstacles to developing skill is to be convinced the skill is impossible to achieve. The instructor who spreads this sort of defeatist attitude isn't living up to his calling.

Personally, I would be greatly embarrassed to discover that I needed to carry power to have good landings in an airplane that other people could land power off. That would send me out to the traffic pattern for days until I could match that ability.

 

[Mike H]

Is it the arrow your having trouble with or the transition to the right seat?

I had alot of trouble landing from the right seat when I initially started, looked like a student pilot landing.

Same here- plus the brake pedals on my side had air in the lines so only the left seater could stop the airplane.

Seriously though, whether power on or power off, you have to maintain the proper airspeed. In the arrow, that's 75 KIAS on short final- or 70 for short field. On the power off 180, don't delay turning for the runway and maintain best glide all the way down. If you've never tried the trick with the prop control, it really does work- you can feel the drag go away when you pull the prop control all the way back. It's almost like feathering the prop on a twin.

 

[tgrayson]

maintain best glide all the way down..

It also helps to understand that the best glide speed changes with changes in drag. If you already have the gear down, as you should, then best glide will be slower than published. In the Arrow II, I have students pitch for 95 mph vs published of 105 mph. This preserves quite a bit of altitude.

 

[N519AT]

If you've never tried the trick with the prop control, it really does work- you can feel the drag go away when you pull the prop control all the way back. It's almost like feathering the prop on a twin.

But can you do it on a checkride or will it bust you?

I just started flying the 10 hours of complex time for commercial in an Arrow at ARB. One of the first things my instructor showed me was pulling back the prop and how you can feel the elimation of drag and feel the acceleration. Not for Power 180's, but for an engine out emergency.