Mike H
Well-Known Member
I can only say I did it on my checkride and passed. But the DPE did want me to be able to explain what the purpose was of doing it.
Advice on landing the Arrow
- Thread starter ILSstud
- Start date
I can only say I did it on my checkride and passed. But the DPE did want me to be able to explain what the purpose was of doing it.
subpilot
Squawking 7600
When you remove power, the nose becomes very heavy which makes it difficult to pitch to the proper landing attitude. Come down on final approach with the trim set a little nose up (meaning you have to apply slight forward pressure on the yoke) and then when you pull the power for the roundout you will have enough elevator authority to have a good flare/touchdown.
subpilot
Squawking 7600
No, the propeller slipstream reduces as you bring back the throttle thus producing less downforce from the horizontal stabilizer and thus the nose wants to pitch down. I flew a Piper Arrow many hours and it is very true with this model. It was standard practice at the school I was at to always arrive on short final with nose up trim applied to assist in the flare.
Did you have to...No, but did it help...Yes. As with the title of this thread, I provided my advice on landing the Arrow.
Did you have to...No, but did it help...Yes. As with the title of this thread, I provided my advice on landing the Arrow.
ILSstud, give this a shot: Go out to an airport, preferably uncontrolled b/c controllers might be curious as to what your doing, that is at least 5,000 feet. Take the aircraft in like would would on any other landing except your not going to land right away. Instead, you are going to add power when you are supposed to flare and fly just above the runway, as low as you are comfortable. Try to get it only a foot or so off the runway with level flight attitude, originally this will require more power and as you get into ground effect less and less will be needed the closer you get to the ground. Continue like this for a a pre determined distance, I usually use 2000' of runway or approximately half way on a 5000' runway.
From your predetermined point continue to reduce power further and keep pulling back with each slight increase more and more until the aircraft begins to sink again. Use your control with power to control that sink rate and settle nicely, then repeat, repeat, repeat, etc. Keep your eyes out down the runway, pay attention to your peripheral vision, and use objects around the airport to judge your height above the ground.
The point is not to learn to come in with power, the point is right now you are likely concentrating so hard on your landings you are getting tunnel vision and failing to use the airport environment and your knowledge of an airplane to properly control/judge your landing. Furthermore, the site picture in the arrow is far different from that of a Cessna which makes the transition ever more difficult. Flying the flare for a couple thousand feet each time and then reducing power will give you time to really see this new site picture and most importantly, get more comfortable with this aircrafts flare attitude and performance.
You should know that for overall practice of this our FOI teaches us as instructors to not spend more than 3-5 times on any maneuver as it can become counter productive. The reason is a person focuses so much on previous failures that they begin to make new failures, instead of getting better, it gets worse.
That being said, when you do this on your flight takeoff and go right to the airport you intend to practice this on and give it a couple tries, two or three should suffice. Then turn around and go fly at altitude a little, working primarily on slow flight and maybe some stalls, you have to do that anyway right? So why not spend the day with the landing picture and learning slow flight operations of the aircraft you are trying to do it in. Than go back and spend do another landing or two like this and call it a day. Do not even bother trying to do a real landing yet, heck if you have to when you head back have your CFI do the last one of the day and take notes.
Now go home and spend some time thinking about the flight, I tell my students to chair fly it. By this I mean sit at home anywhere or even driving in your car and picture every step and everything you did for that flight: compare, analyze, and practice it in your head. The next lesson you head out do a few more of these and if you feel comfortable take it in for some real landing practice with a whole knew wealth of information you currently do not have.
Good luck to you and let me know how it turns out.
PS I agree with gray, it is a crime to teach that you "must" have power to land a small piston aircraft properly. Use of power is an excuse for pilots who are often incapable of performing smooth landings with idle power operations to maximum (full stall) performance of that aircraft. Finally, idle power, full stall, and hearing those wheels squeak is IMO the mark of a true aviator.
From your predetermined point continue to reduce power further and keep pulling back with each slight increase more and more until the aircraft begins to sink again. Use your control with power to control that sink rate and settle nicely, then repeat, repeat, repeat, etc. Keep your eyes out down the runway, pay attention to your peripheral vision, and use objects around the airport to judge your height above the ground.
The point is not to learn to come in with power, the point is right now you are likely concentrating so hard on your landings you are getting tunnel vision and failing to use the airport environment and your knowledge of an airplane to properly control/judge your landing. Furthermore, the site picture in the arrow is far different from that of a Cessna which makes the transition ever more difficult. Flying the flare for a couple thousand feet each time and then reducing power will give you time to really see this new site picture and most importantly, get more comfortable with this aircrafts flare attitude and performance.
You should know that for overall practice of this our FOI teaches us as instructors to not spend more than 3-5 times on any maneuver as it can become counter productive. The reason is a person focuses so much on previous failures that they begin to make new failures, instead of getting better, it gets worse.
That being said, when you do this on your flight takeoff and go right to the airport you intend to practice this on and give it a couple tries, two or three should suffice. Then turn around and go fly at altitude a little, working primarily on slow flight and maybe some stalls, you have to do that anyway right? So why not spend the day with the landing picture and learning slow flight operations of the aircraft you are trying to do it in. Than go back and spend do another landing or two like this and call it a day. Do not even bother trying to do a real landing yet, heck if you have to when you head back have your CFI do the last one of the day and take notes.
Now go home and spend some time thinking about the flight, I tell my students to chair fly it. By this I mean sit at home anywhere or even driving in your car and picture every step and everything you did for that flight: compare, analyze, and practice it in your head. The next lesson you head out do a few more of these and if you feel comfortable take it in for some real landing practice with a whole knew wealth of information you currently do not have.
Good luck to you and let me know how it turns out.
PS I agree with gray, it is a crime to teach that you "must" have power to land a small piston aircraft properly. Use of power is an excuse for pilots who are often incapable of performing smooth landings with idle power operations to maximum (full stall) performance of that aircraft. Finally, idle power, full stall, and hearing those wheels squeak is IMO the mark of a true aviator.
It is true, but not because of reduced slipstream. Centerline thrust is the cause as centerline thrust reduces the induced flow over the tail, or increases it with power increase. Thus an increase of power in any centerline thrust aircraft, where thrust will inevitably travel over the elevator, will cause that aircraft elevator to be more effective and pitch up higher than intended resulting in reduced speed. The reverse happens with a power decrease, less airflow over the tail which allows the nose to fall lower and results in a slight increase in airspeed. You will notice in any twin with a t-tail or any other aircraft where thrust does not impinge the elevator, changes in airspeed will not result from changes in power settings.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
Thats a pretty bold statement unless you have flown every airplane in existence. I have flown a single that if you fly it by the numbers on a short field landing and pull power out before the round-out you will run out of elevator before touchdown. But I guess I just imagined it all and I am a horrible pilot.
Hmmm so your guaranteed to never be able to land this plane in the event of an engine failure, seems like a dangerous bird you have there.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
Hmmm so your guaranteed to never be able to land this plane in the event of an engine failure, seems like a dangerous bird you have there.
Thats not what I said, and I never said that the plane cannot be landed power out. I said that if it is flown by the short field numbers it runs out of elevator if you pull the power out before the round-out. And if there was a power loss I would not be flying short field numbers now would I.. Just saying that there is a situation out there that carrying power untill right before touchdown does exist in certain senarios in certain planes.
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
Hmmm so your guaranteed to never be able to land this plane in the event of an engine failure, seems like a dangerous bird you have there.
Your short field Vref is usually slower then Vg.
I teach to land w/ power in the SR-20, SR-22, C-182, C-182RG, Saratoga, Arrow, TB-9, BE-35 in certain situations. I guess I'm just an awful instructor and I'm providing my students a major disservice in teaching them how to smoothly land the airplane if the runway length is not a factor. I guess I should just hammer it on in there every-time.
When did we start talking about short field landings? Wasn't this all started in reference to, "I carried power in until the end of the round out most of the time, and never really had a problem." ??? I doubt he is most of the time flying short field landings, would make sense to be normal operations.WJ introduced short field into this, but to my recollection that wasn't what the discussion was about. It is for any traditional landing, sure there will be circumstances where other methods can be used. Again, that wasn't the discussion or the argument.
I simply chose to ignore his introduction of new ideas to the "normal ops" argument. My apologies.
Right, but not because "the nose becomes very heavy". It's already heavy. It will remain the same weight with power on or off.
-mini
subpilot
Squawking 7600
I meant the elevator pressure (Trim) becomes very heavy. I assumed that nobody actually would think weight was increased in the nose since we are all intelligent adults here.
I know. I'm just busting your eggs tonight...I have absolutely........nothing......else...............to do.
Being stuck in the middle of nowhere on long island is just awful.
Relax. All in good fun. :beer:
But seriously, back to my advice. Fly the profile. If piper wants you at 68.227 knots at 50' with flaps down, gear down and power at idle.............there ya go.
-mini
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
WJ introduced short field into this, but to my recollection that wasn't what the discussion was about. It is for any traditional landing, sure there will be circumstances where other methods can be used. Again, that wasn't the discussion or the argument.
I simply chose to ignore his introduction of new ideas to the "normal ops" argument. My apologies.
Well since you are so confused this is what my discussion was about. And it wasn't meant for you anyway. Like I said before, just making note of the fact that it is not "criminal" as it was put to me to teach landings with power through the flare in certain planes/senarios.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
You can grease landings in the Arrow if you keep the power in a tiny bit until round out. I land the Arrow just like the Seneca. even if its 200rpm, if you chop the throttle your producing negative thrust, bump it up a couple hundred to around zero thrust and the plane lands much better.
Chicks dig beta.I never liked the term negative thrust. I have heard it a few times and it makes no sense. I assume you mean drag. Anyways, I'm not trying to pick a fight, just wanted to make that statement. It sounds like your saying there is a beta range on an Arrow.
-mini
