JustinS
Well-Known Member
I don’t have access to my Jepps at the moment. I’d bet money it’s on the Jepp map though. Anyways, it is a prominent landmark in the Bay Area.
757 A/T failure
- Thread starter MikeD
- Start date
I don’t have access to my Jepps at the moment. I’d bet money it’s on the Jepp map though. Anyways, it is a prominent landmark in the Bay Area.
That’s why there’s a chart legend on the front.
tcco94
Future GTA VI Pilot
I grew up in the Bay Area right next to Mt. Diablo and even I didn’t find Mt. Diablo to be a threat for that crew lol
Just a weird CC rant that this crew was out there fighting EGWPS alerts while on the phone with the duty pilot. Or whatever his narrative of what happened lol
Just a weird CC rant that this crew was out there fighting EGWPS alerts while on the phone with the duty pilot. Or whatever his narrative of what happened lol
I looked because apparently i have nothing better to do and it's only on the "VFR" selection on the jepp enroutes which 90% of the captains i flew with as an FO didn't know how to enable.
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tcco94
Future GTA VI Pilot
Get ready to hear about how stupid it is to not fly around with VFR charts lol
arkflyr
Well-Known Member
So did I since I've been flying out of OAK for almost 8 years and never heard of it. The only reference I can see to it is an obstacle on the SALAD departure which is N/A for RW30 so there is that.
And I only use VFR on the Jepp chart to keep from getting busted speeding below class B, and never for terrain.
I only use it to find what random ass town i'm flying over.
Flyinthrew
Well-Known Member
DAL Duty Pilot here. We were scratching our heads for days on this, too, even before it got internet famous. There was no reason whatsoever that it had to go that way. AT goes inop, troubleshooting with experts doesn’t fix it, you don’t want to fly a redeye like that, air turn back. DONE. Be in command.
It got weird because in the OCC when a pilot even mutters the word fatigue the 95% answer is to send them over to the duty pilot. My somewhat educated guess is that it was a junior dispatcher trying to flick the booger. This was the other 5% and once the duty pilot got on the radio he realized that and was making sure the record showed this was an air turnback for a mx issue rather than some sort of physiological episode.
It got weird because in the OCC when a pilot even mutters the word fatigue the 95% answer is to send them over to the duty pilot. My somewhat educated guess is that it was a junior dispatcher trying to flick the booger. This was the other 5% and once the duty pilot got on the radio he realized that and was making sure the record showed this was an air turnback for a mx issue rather than some sort of physiological episode.
My view on signing the fitness for duty statement on the release is that you'll be good to operate the entirety of the flight including any non-normals that may arise. I've had a few cases in my career where I took off thinking I was good and 4 hours in it felt like being slapped by a bag of bricks. My takeaway from those situations is that I shouldn't have pushed it and should have called out fatigued before beginning that flight.
We can sit here and argue the turnback vs continue decision and we all have different comfort and experience levels flying without autothrottles, but ultimately that's not going to garner much criticism at the end of the day since the outcome of the flight was positive. What's getting criticized is once that decision has been made, there's no need to dance around it and try to get the company to arrive to the same conclusion. You already have the premises to return due to a mechanical, tell them and act on your decision. Fatigue might have played into your decision but the official reason is mechanical.
What's even stranger about this lack of assertiveness is I've never had SJI even remotely push back on similar decisions, so I'm not sure where the fear of confrontation comes from. I've had to turn a 767 around because one of the packs went crazy blowing full hot air in the cabin, overheated, and tripped. We couldn't recover it in either auto or standby modes per the QRH. Further troubleshooting over ATL radio with MX didn't fix it, so I told the dispatcher "hey I know theater restrictions are for dispatch purposes and there's nothing in the QRH saying we have to land, but I don't think it's a good idea to cross an ocean on a single pack and we don't feel comfortable doing it". He said "totally agree, let me see if there's any airport with spare planes and crews that would make the recovery easier otherwise let's go ahead and turn around". I've also refused to keep flying an airplane after an issue that was noted as intermittent on an "info only" writeup turned out to be a much bigger deal, and they simply said "sure there's another one pulling in a few gates down the concourse, head over there and I'll send you a new release". Nobody ever fought me so I don't see why he was hesitant to make the call.
We can sit here and argue the turnback vs continue decision and we all have different comfort and experience levels flying without autothrottles, but ultimately that's not going to garner much criticism at the end of the day since the outcome of the flight was positive. What's getting criticized is once that decision has been made, there's no need to dance around it and try to get the company to arrive to the same conclusion. You already have the premises to return due to a mechanical, tell them and act on your decision. Fatigue might have played into your decision but the official reason is mechanical.
What's even stranger about this lack of assertiveness is I've never had SJI even remotely push back on similar decisions, so I'm not sure where the fear of confrontation comes from. I've had to turn a 767 around because one of the packs went crazy blowing full hot air in the cabin, overheated, and tripped. We couldn't recover it in either auto or standby modes per the QRH. Further troubleshooting over ATL radio with MX didn't fix it, so I told the dispatcher "hey I know theater restrictions are for dispatch purposes and there's nothing in the QRH saying we have to land, but I don't think it's a good idea to cross an ocean on a single pack and we don't feel comfortable doing it". He said "totally agree, let me see if there's any airport with spare planes and crews that would make the recovery easier otherwise let's go ahead and turn around". I've also refused to keep flying an airplane after an issue that was noted as intermittent on an "info only" writeup turned out to be a much bigger deal, and they simply said "sure there's another one pulling in a few gates down the concourse, head over there and I'll send you a new release". Nobody ever fought me so I don't see why he was hesitant to make the call.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I applaud you for being the first American to use the word “emergent” properly, since 2020
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
You got it. It's that button that allows you to choose between High, Low, or VFR. I actually find myself looking at the VFR one quite a bit, for landmarks approaching a city for landing.
Flyinthrew
Well-Known Member
This is all very well said. I can’t help but think that some of the negative nancies on the internet make people with no baseline think that their bizarro-land is actually what it’s like here.
JordanD
Here so I don’t get fined
And then screenshot all the ones that make me giggle like "Mud Butte"
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
On that note, there's a fix on the airway between Anchorage and Japan with the name NYMPH. I laugh every time we pass it.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Of course it happens. I have seen it in the regionals. I have personally been in a position where I should have diverted and nearly lawndarted myself on an approach.
Most "diversions" you hear about due to fatigue usually involve the ground and lots of fire.
Skåning
Well-Known Member
No more Lido charts?
Hiboglossi
The Most Depressing Person
Can't say I've heard of it, but I don't think it's indefensible. If you realize in flight that you are unfit to continue flying, probably better to divert than continue for several more hours, whether the reason for it is fatigue or an illness like food poisoning as Minuteman alluded to. I would agree that it looks like the crew did not consider the possibility of an abnormal situation making the flight more fatiguing when they signed the release- in fact the importance of considering that is something all of us should probably take away from this- but even if they realized that too late, as it appears they did, probably better to return to field than knowingly continue flying for several hours while fatigued.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I can simultaneously:
- not have a problem with what they did, while
- having a problem with how it was accomplished.
- not have a problem with what they did, while
- having a problem with how it was accomplished.
A300Capt
Freight Dawg
He’s obviously one of those top tier people hauling pilots.
Us lowly freight dawgs ain’t got that kind of smarts or book learnings. Just don’t get between us and the catering….whoof! 
He’s obviously one of those top tier people hauling pilots.
And your younger freight dog brethren in the small planes, keep them away from the FBO cookies.
