757 A/T failure

[JordanD]

I just had a FAT call. Coming here I couldn’t wrap my mind around people calling super early for fatigue calls. Like 8-12hrs early but if people were getting fired or screwed with in the past it makes sense. Call early and try to minimize company disruption.
Reprimanding someone over a fatigue call isn’t a hill a company wants to get wounded on, especially if something happens.

I can get that one depending on how early. If it's clearly past the point where any meaningful sleep is going to occur before showtime, sure. Half a day early because "I'm not a morning person" would be a little goofy though. I routinely remember the "we're going to release you into 10 hours rest so you can show at 5am tomorrow" calls.

Mostly guys that got successfully fired there were drug test failures and playing games with the reserve system.

That blows my mind. "We're going to pay you a pretty crazy amount of money to, at bare minimum, not do drugs until you're 65, and to exist in this general area in case we need you."

"Sorry, can't do it."

 

[DE727UPS]

I think there are certain people the company has taken notice of that are of the belligerent sort. I was on the jumpseat with a Capt in China once who created a lengthy delay out of spite and told us he was going to do it. That was the worst I ever saw. I never tried to cause trouble but didn't bend over backwards, either. Know the contract was my mantra. I had a few guys that would consult me about stuff before going to the union. Probably the worst I ever did towards getting fired was calling in sick after a reserve callout. It happens. Never heard a word but didn't make a habit of it. Was late lots of times but you could blame that on LA traffic. There is the famous story of an ANC guy on reserve who would call in sick when called cause he wasn't even there. Company found out about it and he was done. Safety stuff? Over the years they learned not to push too hard on safety stuff.

 

[DE727UPS]

I can get that one depending on how early. If it's clearly past the point where any meaningful sleep is going to occur before showtime, sure. Half a day early because "I'm not a morning person" would be a little goofy though. I routinely remember the "we're going to release you into 10 hours rest so you can show at 5am tomorrow" calls.

One of my FAT calls was when I noticed an advisement on my line (we'd get an email) that they wanted me to show 5 hours early. I was in rest and literally hadn't slept yet. Decided to use my rest period to stay awake at first and sleep right up to show. They can't tell you how to manage your sleep during your rest period. I called skeds and told them I couldn't do it. Guy says "are you refusing the assignment" and I said no. You can put me down as FAT now, or I'll call you back later. They found someone else. If you know your gonna be FAT then the more notice you give them the better for them. Any push back and I'd just mention next time you'll wait unti show time. But sometimes that's just how it is.

 

[JordanD]

One of my FAT calls was when I noticed an advisement on my line (we'd get an email) that they wanted me to show 5 hours early. I was in rest and literally hadn't slept yet. Decided to use my rest period to stay awake at first and sleep right up to show. They can't tell you how to manage your sleep during your rest period. I called skeds and told them I couldn't do it. Guy says "are you refusing the assignment" and I said no. You can put me down as FAT now, or I'll call you back later. They found someone else. If you know your gonna be FAT then the more notice you give them the better for them. Any push back and I'd just mention next time you'll wait unti show time. But sometimes that's just how it is.

I didn't think that was legal but I forget about the cargo carveout and all my 121 experience has been post 117, so I'm not super familiar with it.

 

[Baronman]

We need to have a higher standard for ourselves and certainly for a captain flying a 757 for a top global airline. This is supposed to be the “big leagues”.

I dunno...Do you really think better pilots are ending up at the "big leagues?" I don't. When you need thousands and thousands of pilots, you're letting in virtually everyone and hopefully you weed out the worst of the worst.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Wtf Dispatch never said to call out fatigue to go back

Correct, did you notice that?

I saw this in my engineering job. It was typically done by a weak person, someone seeking confirmation of what to do. It would be played with a, “well accounting said blah blah.” And it’s like wait a minute, no they did not! This is just you and what you think should happen.

Same here. Once management pilot is in the line, the PIC wants direction, affirmation, confirmation, so he plays it as well they said the only way go back is fatigue. Notice the “they” said in that call a few times. No, there ws never a they said. Only one person in that entire call wanted to divert: The PIC.

That’s fine. But be a PIC, make the decision, stand by the decision. And don’t have to explain anything mid-air. Talk to a management pilot on the ground after the divert.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I think there are certain people the company has taken notice of that are of the belligerent sort. I was on the jumpseat with a Capt in China once who created a lengthy delay out of spite and told us he was going to do it. That was the worst I ever saw. I never tried to cause trouble but didn't bend over backwards, either. Know the contract was my mantra. I had a few guys that would consult me about stuff before going to the union. Probably the worst I ever did towards getting fired was calling in sick after a reserve callout. It happens. Never heard a word but didn't make a habit of it. Was late lots of times but you could blame that on LA traffic. There is the famous story of an ANC guy on reserve who would call in sick when called cause he wasn't even there. Company found out about it and he was done. Safety stuff? Over the years they learned not to push too hard on safety stuff.

Like the one JC member who was reserve at ORD but jumpseating on a freighter from Florida to South America for a personal vacation?

 

[🦈💜]

I didn't think that was legal but I forget about the cargo carveout and all my 121 experience has been post 117, so I'm not super familiar with it.

Story time, post 117 (July 2024):
I had three 14+ hour locals with min-rest overnights in base in a row, ~5am showtimes. Day four was another 5am show, with a deadhead SFO-ORD, three hours of RDY, then a 20 hour overnight with a ~18:00 local show that ended at midnight in OKC. I was excited to finally get some rest.

I got to sleep around 0400 chicago time (0200 base time) in preparation for my PM switch. Well, 04:30 my phone rang. I switched it to DND and flipped it over. CS kept calling until it rang through. (I have that set on since I'm perpetual AM reserve and don't want to miss a call for having it in the wrong mode)

NBD. I turned it to silent mode, rolled over and went back to sleep.

A few minutes later, the phone in my hotel room starts ringing. Groggy, I start digging around for a way to unplug it, but the I'm in one of the wedge rooms in the Hyatt Regency O'Hare, and the line is hard-wired to the phone, then goes behind a desk that's attached to the wall.

It keeps ringing. Annoyed, I finally answer it.

(Paraphrasing):
"Hi Captain, you have a 0630 show."
"No. I'm at rest, and rest must be prospective in nature."
"You had ten hours of rest, you're legal."
"I've only been asleep for half an hour. I didn't voluntarily answer the phone—you can't just war-dial my room. I'm at rest."
"It's legal."
"I want to speak to the crew time coordinator, right now."
"Ok, but she'll say the same thing."
TL;DR: She did. "You had 10 hours of rest, you're legal."
Asked to be forwarded to the MOD.
MOD, very salty: "Yeah, it's legal. You answered the phone."
"CS called me in my hotel room."
"You're in a hotel room <the company> PAYS FOR, of course we can call you." (Sarcastic, 'I hate pilots' voice, 'pays for' emphasized like I'm on vacation or something) "If you don't like it, unplug the phone next time.,"
"I can't unplug this phone. I've only had half an hour of sleep, and you interrupted my rest."
"(Something like "that sounds like a 'you' problem"). Are you saying you're fatigued?"
"Of course I'm fatigued."

My fatigue report was denied.

All the holes in 117 have been discovered and exploited at this point; 117 is a target, not a limit.

 

[MikeD]

Correct, did you notice that?

I saw this in my engineering job. It was typically done by a weak person, someone seeking confirmation of what to do. It would be played with a, “well accounting said blah blah.” And it’s like wait a minute, no they did not! This is just you and what you think should happen.

Same here. Once management pilot is in the line, the PIC wants direction, affirmation, confirmation, so he plays it as well they said the only way go back is fatigue. Notice the “they” said in that call a few times. No, there ws never a they said. Only one person in that entire call wanted to divert: The PIC.

That’s fine. But be a PIC, make the decision, stand by the decision. And don’t have to explain anything mid-air. Talk to a management pilot on the ground after the divert.

VFR direct to the big brown desk for a carpet dance session.

 

[JordanD]

Story time, post 117 (July 2024):
I had three 14+ hour locals with min-rest overnights in base in a row, ~5am showtimes. Day four was another 5am show, with a deadhead SFO-ORD, three hours of RDY, then a 20 hour overnight with a ~18:00 local show that ended at midnight in OKC. I was excited to finally get some rest.

I got to sleep around 0400 chicago time (0200 base time) in preparation for my PM switch. Well, 04:30 my phone rang. I switched it to DND and flipped it over. CS kept calling until it rang through. (I have that set on since I'm perpetual AM reserve and don't want to miss a call for having it in the wrong mode)

NBD. I turned it to silent mode, rolled over and went back to sleep.

A few minutes later, the phone in my hotel room starts ringing. Groggy, I start digging around for a way to unplug it, but the I'm in one of the wedge rooms in the Hyatt Regency O'Hare, and the line is hard-wired to the phone, then goes behind a desk that's attached to the wall.

It keeps ringing. Annoyed, I finally answer it.

(Paraphrasing):
"Hi Captain, you have a 0630 show."
"No. I'm at rest, and rest must be prospective in nature."
"You had ten hours of rest, you're legal."
"I've only been asleep for half an hour. I didn't voluntarily answer the phone—you can't just war-dial my room. I'm at rest."
"It's legal."
"I want to speak to the crew time coordinator, right now."
"Ok, but she'll say the same thing."
TL;DR: She did. "You had 10 hours of rest, you're legal."
Asked to be forwarded to the MOD.
MOD, very salty: "Yeah, it's legal. You answered the phone."
"CS called me in my hotel room."
"You're in a hotel room <the company> PAYS FOR, of course we can call you." (Sarcastic, 'I hate pilots' voice, 'pays for' emphasized like I'm on vacation or something) "If you don't like it, unplug the phone next time.,"
"I can't unplug this phone. I've only had half an hour of sleep, and you interrupted my rest."
"(Something like "that sounds like a 'you' problem"). Are you saying you're fatigued?"
"Of course I'm fatigued."

My fatigue report was denied.

All the holes in 117 have been discovered and exploited at this point; 117 is a target, not a limit.

Wow. That would have been pretty easily approved back in the day I feel like.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Yeah. I was always told that fatigue is predictive. It’s not uncommon at all for guys to notify scheduling that they’ll be calling in fatigued after operating their next leg.

That can open a big can of worms. I don’t recommend that you do that. If you use the F word and something happens, well, you see where this is going.

Story time, post 117 (July 2024):
I had three 14+ hour locals with min-rest overnights in base in a row, ~5am showtimes. Day four was another 5am show, with a deadhead SFO-ORD, three hours of RDY, then a 20 hour overnight with a ~18:00 local show that ended at midnight in OKC. I was excited to finally get some rest.

I got to sleep around 0400 chicago time (0200 base time) in preparation for my PM switch. Well, 04:30 my phone rang. I switched it to DND and flipped it over. CS kept calling until it rang through. (I have that set on since I'm perpetual AM reserve and don't want to miss a call for having it in the wrong mode)

NBD. I turned it to silent mode, rolled over and went back to sleep.

A few minutes later, the phone in my hotel room starts ringing. Groggy, I start digging around for a way to unplug it, but the I'm in one of the wedge rooms in the Hyatt Regency O'Hare, and the line is hard-wired to the phone, then goes behind a desk that's attached to the wall.

It keeps ringing. Annoyed, I finally answer it.

(Paraphrasing):
"Hi Captain, you have a 0630 show."
"No. I'm at rest, and rest must be prospective in nature."
"You had ten hours of rest, you're legal."
"I've only been asleep for half an hour. I didn't voluntarily answer the phone—you can't just war-dial my room. I'm at rest."
"It's legal."
"I want to speak to the crew time coordinator, right now."
"Ok, but she'll say the same thing."
TL;DR: She did. "You had 10 hours of rest, you're legal."
Asked to be forwarded to the MOD.
MOD, very salty: "Yeah, it's legal. You answered the phone."
"CS called me in my hotel room."
"You're in a hotel room <the company> PAYS FOR, of course we can call you." (Sarcastic, 'I hate pilots' voice, 'pays for' emphasized like I'm on vacation or something) "If you don't like it, unplug the phone next time.,"
"I can't unplug this phone. I've only had half an hour of sleep, and you interrupted my rest."
"(Something like "that sounds like a 'you' problem"). Are you saying you're fatigued?"
"Of course I'm fatigued."

My fatigue report was denied.

All the holes in 117 have been discovered and exploited at this point; 117 is a target, not a limit.

Similar thing happened to me at Endeavor, only it was multiple mistakes on their part. Finally, I just told them I’m fatigued and I’ll be contactable in 10 hours. I woke up and they scheduled me a DH on a city pair that didn’t actually exist. I showed up on time and waited for the scheduled departure of the phantom flight, and then they put me back in the same hotel. I also filed two grievances and won them.

 

[🦈💜]

Wow. That would have been pretty easily approved back in the day I feel like.

It also doesn't help that I'm a reserve, so they can just claim fatigue was actually just a reflow to zero credit.

Being a reserve CA here for almost four years has pushed me to the point where I'm most likely leaving the industry unless
something breaks my way soon. I'm becoming a grumpy captain and that's not ok. Life's too short to share the flight deck with someone who's salty and fraying around the edges and isn't having fun anymore. I still love the flying part. Being CA is great. Love my crews. But honestly, the juice is increasingly not worth the squeeze.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It also doesn't help that I'm a reserve, so they can just claim fatigue was actually just a reflow to zero credit.

Being a reserve CA here for almost four years has pushed me to the point where I'm most likely leaving the industry unless
something breaks my way soon. I'm becoming a grumpy captain and that's not ok. Life's too short to share the flight deck with someone who's salty and fraying around the edges and isn't having fun anymore. I still love the flying part. Being CA is great. Love my crews. But honestly, the juice is increasingly not worth the squeeze.

This industry will shake you like a baby. You just have to stay the course and when things change, alter the plan.


How was this speed-runner's advice? Do you find this advice helpful, was this something actionable? Or. Would you tell a guy like this to go stuff it?

 

[🦈💜]

This industry will shake you like a baby. You just have to stay the course and when things change, alter the plan.


How was this speed-runner's advice? Do you find this advice helpful, was this something actionable? Or. Would you tell a guy like this to go stuff it?

"but with the grace of God and a spoon, I managed to get them back down again." #punchlineonly

 

[H46Bubba]

I know both the the Mx Controller dispatcher. I've had plenty of crews take a 757 with no auto throttle.

 

[tcco94]

I don’t understand why the duty pilat was averse to the crew saying they were fatigued while flying. I get why that’s bad, but can’t fatigue be a developing condition that did not exist before they closed the door, similar to food poisoning?

Does calling fatigued in-air have some larger implications for the crew’s or the operation’s future? Are there penalties when that occurs?

Duty pilot fatigue call is just meant to mark you fatigue on your trip and ask how long until you’re fit for duty. He’s not denying a crew can get fatigued in the air, just that it’s practically pointless to call him mid-air to say I’m fatigued. There’s nothing he can do.

 

[tcco94]

View attachment 80289

Good ol’ Monday morning QB’ing “how stupid is this crew!” Instead of “hmm, what can I learn from this”

Different strokes for different folks!

 

[ChasenSFO]

I’m guessing NYC-based. Maybe not familiar. Not much of an excuse, but it was my thought…

Isn't the terrain on the SID chart? Lol

 

[mikecweb]

Isn't the terrain on the SID chart? Lol

Not really. All they would see is the MSA which is 5100'. I have no idea what/where Mt. Diablo is, nor would I unless i really had the time to study the area, which i wouldn't.
Easy to sit here and MMQB these guys at ground speed zero. Me thinks they made the right call coming back as their cognitive reasoning already seemed diminished. Rather them sound silly on a youtube video then kill a bunch of people.
(note to self, always call the company on Satcom)
((Also note to self if I ever end up in a deal, stay off the internet for awhile))

 

[Maurus]

Story time, post 117 (July 2024):
I had three 14+ hour locals with min-rest overnights in base in a row, ~5am showtimes. Day four was another 5am show, with a deadhead SFO-ORD, three hours of RDY, then a 20 hour overnight with a ~18:00 local show that ended at midnight in OKC. I was excited to finally get some rest.

I got to sleep around 0400 chicago time (0200 base time) in preparation for my PM switch. Well, 04:30 my phone rang. I switched it to DND and flipped it over. CS kept calling until it rang through. (I have that set on since I'm perpetual AM reserve and don't want to miss a call for having it in the wrong mode)

NBD. I turned it to silent mode, rolled over and went back to sleep.

A few minutes later, the phone in my hotel room starts ringing. Groggy, I start digging around for a way to unplug it, but the I'm in one of the wedge rooms in the Hyatt Regency O'Hare, and the line is hard-wired to the phone, then goes behind a desk that's attached to the wall.

It keeps ringing. Annoyed, I finally answer it.

(Paraphrasing):
"Hi Captain, you have a 0630 show."
"No. I'm at rest, and rest must be prospective in nature."
"You had ten hours of rest, you're legal."
"I've only been asleep for half an hour. I didn't voluntarily answer the phone—you can't just war-dial my room. I'm at rest."
"It's legal."
"I want to speak to the crew time coordinator, right now."
"Ok, but she'll say the same thing."
TL;DR: She did. "You had 10 hours of rest, you're legal."
Asked to be forwarded to the MOD.
MOD, very salty: "Yeah, it's legal. You answered the phone."
"CS called me in my hotel room."
"You're in a hotel room <the company> PAYS FOR, of course we can call you." (Sarcastic, 'I hate pilots' voice, 'pays for' emphasized like I'm on vacation or something) "If you don't like it, unplug the phone next time.,"
"I can't unplug this phone. I've only had half an hour of sleep, and you interrupted my rest."
"(Something like "that sounds like a 'you' problem"). Are you saying you're fatigued?"
"Of course I'm fatigued."

My fatigue report was denied.

All the holes in 117 have been discovered and exploited at this point; 117 is a target, not a limit.

Those aren't holes. It is an outright disregard for the regulations.

Since SkyWest is still not part of ALPA your options are obviously limited. Best thing you can do is email them with the regs they broke along with the supporting documentation from the FAA Chief Counsel. If they email you back denying you then all you can do is suck it up or lawsuit.

An anonymous call to the FAA safety line could also make you feel better.