757 A/T failure

[RORO]

Yup. The first point I brought up. Your motors are running fine and you aren’t smoke/fire. And when he called, they were already handflying through 1,500 ft. Why would you ask for a level off at 2,000 or 3,000? Especially when dealing with what you think is a control issue with AP off, away off, and TAT messages.

Because muscle memory would tell you it probably is 3000. Think about it, 90%+ of the time you brief a missed approach altitude or MSA, what is it? Its normally 3000 and the times it isn't is in an airport challenged by terrain or complex procedures where you're more inclined to pay attention to it. I know for sure I've spun 3000 as a missed approach altitude only for myself or the other pilot to realize it was incorrect and input the correct altitude (probably 2 or 4). Its an expectation bias.

Personally, I can 100% see this crew being in the position where they're tired and overloaded and say • it im going to what is most often a safe altitude. Is it correct? No. Does the entire conversation sound ridiculous for us watching it in hindsight at 0 mph? Yes. Would we have not made the same mistakes in their exact position? We very well could have. We're all very fallible. People have different limits and we really don't know what they were dealing with prior.

I've definitely made some dumb decisions fatigued, and I've accepted aircraft when I really shouldn't have because of external factors or my own poor self evaluation. I really don't think we should be so quick to hang this crew as we are as susceptible to fail in the same manner.

 

[Toobdrvr]

Even if you depart flat areas, with both motors running and no smoke/fire, altitude will be your friend for any control issue. It gives you more margin from terra firma.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Because muscle memory would tell you it probably is 3000. Think about it, 90%+ of the time you brief a missed approach altitude or MSA, what is it? Its normally 3000 and the times it isn't is in an airport challenged by terrain or complex procedures where you're more inclined to pay attention to it. I know for sure I've spun 3000 as a missed approach altitude only for myself or the other pilot to realize it was incorrect and input the correct altitude (probably 2 or 4). Its an expectation bias.

Personally, I can 100% see this crew being in the position where they're tired and overloaded and say • it im going to what is most often a safe altitude. Is it correct? No. Does the entire conversation sound ridiculous for us watching it in hindsight at 0 mph? Yes. Would we have not made the same mistakes in their exact position? We very well could have. We're all very fallible. People have different limits and we really don't know what they were dealing with prior.

I've definitely made some dumb decisions fatigued, and I've accepted aircraft when I really shouldn't have because of external factors or my own poor self evaluation. I really don't think we should be so quick to hang this crew as we are as susceptible to fail in the same manner.

It’s fair to look at a situation and learn from it. If you’re honest, you’d agree that the command making decision of the PIC here is… weak. Yes he got the whole team involved. But how it played out, that’s a yikes.

 

[Kingairer]

Because muscle memory would tell you it probably is 3000. Think about it, 90%+ of the time you brief a missed approach altitude or MSA, what is it? Its normally 3000 and the times it isn't is in an airport challenged by terrain or complex procedures where you're more inclined to pay attention to it. I know for sure I've spun 3000 as a missed approach altitude only for myself or the other pilot to realize it was incorrect and input the correct altitude (probably 2 or 4). Its an expectation bias.

Personally, I can 100% see this crew being in the position where they're tired and overloaded and say • it im going to what is most often a safe altitude. Is it correct? No. Does the entire conversation sound ridiculous for us watching it in hindsight at 0 mph? Yes. Would we have not made the same mistakes in their exact position? We very well could have. We're all very fallible. People have different limits and we really don't know what they were dealing with prior.

I've definitely made some dumb decisions fatigued, and I've accepted aircraft when I really shouldn't have because of external factors or my own poor self evaluation. I really don't think we should be so quick to hang this crew as we are as susceptible to fail in the same manner.

We need to have a higher standard for ourselves and certainly for a captain flying a 757 for a top global airline. This is supposed to be the “big leagues”. I don’t think they should be infallible or without fault, obviously we all make mistakes. Poor level off altitude or decision to return I don’t really fault.
But motoring aimlessly around terrain with my head up my arse while I’m on hold for the dang duty pilot for some reason and start rambling on about circadian lows waiting for someone else to make a call, jeeeeezus. You’re right though, we can all learn from these things, and at least have even more confidence not to do *that* if similar arises.

 

[RORO]

We need to have a higher standard for ourselves and certainly for a captain flying a 757 for a top global airline. This is supposed to be the “big leagues”. I don’t think they should be infallible or without fault, obviously we all make mistakes. Poor level off altitude or decision to return I don’t really fault.
But motoring aimlessly around terrain with my head up my arse while I’m on hold for the dang duty pilot for some reason and start rambling on about circadian lows waiting for someone else to make a call, jeeeeezus. You’re right though, we can all learn from these things, and at least have even more confidence not to do *that* if similar arises.

Yea, I don't know what this captain's experience level is or what they faced earlier in the day that let them get strung down that rabbit hole. I learned my own level of assertiveness and what im willing to accept/reject through my own limited experience. Even if it is the big leagues, we're still a bell curve of personalities and skill where most reside close to the center so I'm inclined to give the crew the benefit of doubt that it isn't a pure lack of leadership. Maybe the training program at DAL focuses too much on the external resources portion of decision making and he felt his hands were tied, IDK I dont work there and Im not him. I understand I'm probably the outlier perspective with this being the internet and all but my previous volunteerism in safety really showed me how very smart people can have moments of absolute incompetence and the dumbest people you've ever met can show pure brilliance if you look at it through the microscope of one moment in their decades long career.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Does Delta do Captain charm school for the first Delta upgrade? We call it the 4th Stripe course, 2 days long, before heading off into the upgrade ground school.

 

[derg]

In the wise words of an LCP I worked with: "One person craps their pants, we all get to wear diapers."

Standing by for the latest diaper memo.

“We’re no longer flying departures before 0500 or after 2000 because of fatigue!”

Meanwhile, Midnight Air drops in with departures before 0500 and after 2000.

 

[MikeD]

We need to have a higher standard for ourselves and certainly for a captain flying a 757 for a top global airline. This is supposed to be the “big leagues”. I don’t think they should be infallible or without fault, obviously we all make mistakes. Poor level off altitude or decision to return I don’t really fault.
But motoring aimlessly around terrain with my head up my arse while I’m on hold for the dang duty pilot for some reason and start rambling on about circadian lows waiting for someone else to make a call, jeeeeezus. You’re right though, we can all learn from these things, and at least have even more confidence not to do *that* if similar arises.

Don’t want to be UAL 863 from 1998. 100 feet of clearance….

 

[///AMG]

It's a term for people who play games with the intent of getting through them as fast as possible, often by using secrets, exploits, and unconventional inputs that allow them to bypass as much as they can.

For speedrunners, the game is the run, if that males sense.

So like Game Genie?

 

[///AMG]

Because muscle memory would tell you it probably is 3000. Think about it, 90%+ of the time you brief a missed approach altitude or MSA, what is it? Its normally 3000 and the times it isn't is in an airport challenged by terrain or complex procedures where you're more inclined to pay attention to it. I know for sure I've spun 3000 as a missed approach altitude only for myself or the other pilot to realize it was incorrect and input the correct altitude (probably 2 or 4). Its an expectation bias.

Hmmm never considered that before, but you are right, it is a pretty common altitude, along with 5k and maybe 6k. I will say that I’m a dork, and I use the fuel slip as a knee board card of sorts. On my arrival card, I write down STAR name, bottom altitude of STAR, target speed on final, and missed approach altitude (as well as an initial turn direction if there is one). I also write the ground/ramp/other after landing freqs i might need. For me, that is way easier in a pinch to look at, than messing around with my iPad. Because like many pilots i am also mildly OCD, i write each of those items in the same order and in the same place, every time.

 

[Minuteman]

I don’t understand why the duty pilat was averse to the crew saying they were fatigued while flying. I get why that’s bad, but can’t fatigue be a developing condition that did not exist before they closed the door, similar to food poisoning?

Does calling fatigued in-air have some larger implications for the crew’s or the operation’s future? Are there penalties when that occurs?

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Does Delta do Captain charm school for the first Delta upgrade? We call it the 4th Stripe course, 2 days long, before heading off into the upgrade ground school.

I believe it’s an FAA requirement now, but could be wrong.

I don’t understand why the duty pilat was averse to the crew saying they were fatigued while flying. I get why that’s bad, but can’t fatigue be a developing condition that did not exist before they closed the door, similar to food poisoning?

Does calling fatigued in-air have some larger implications for the crew’s or the operation’s future? Are there penalties when that occurs?

I think he was just trying to get him to STFU and not possibly incriminate himself. He was trying to protect him.

 

[derg]

We need to have a higher standard for ourselves and certainly for a captain flying a 757 for a top global airline. This is supposed to be the “big leagues”. I don’t think they should be infallible or without fault, obviously we all make mistakes. Poor level off altitude or decision to return I don’t really fault.
But motoring aimlessly around terrain with my head up my arse while I’m on hold for the dang duty pilot for some reason and start rambling on about circadian lows waiting for someone else to make a call, jeeeeezus. You’re right though, we can all learn from these things, and at least have even more confidence not to do *that* if similar arises.

Yes.

 

[mwflyer]

I don’t understand why the duty pilat was averse to the crew saying they were fatigued while flying. I get why that’s bad, but can’t fatigue be a developing condition that did not exist before they closed the door, similar to food poisoning?

Does calling fatigued in-air have some larger implications for the crew’s or the operation’s future? Are there penalties when that occurs?

Yeah. I was always told that fatigue is predictive. It’s not uncommon at all for guys to notify scheduling that they’ll be calling in fatigued after operating their next leg.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

“We’re no longer flying departures before 0500 or after 2000 because of fatigue!”

Meanwhile, Midnight Air drops in with departures before 0500 and after 2000.

My exact opinions on THAT, as someone who safely flew jungle turns, are not fit to print.

 

[GroundPilot]

Wtf Dispatch never said to call out fatigue to go back

 

[DE727UPS]

Does calling fatigued in-air have some larger implications for the crew’s or the operation’s future? Are there penalties when that occurs?

I flew night freight for 33 years and literally never heard of a divert for FAT. You have to make that call before you show. That's just how it is. They would try to fire you at UPS over this but likely it would not stick cause it's a safety issue. Mostly guys that got successfully fired there were drug test failures and playing games with the reserve system. It's hard to get fired over a safety issue.

 

[phill1174]

I flew night freight for 33 years and literally never heard of a divert for FAT. You have to make that call before you show. That's just how it is. They would try to fire you at UPS over this but likely it would not stick cause it's a safety issue. Mostly guys that got successfully fired there were drug test failures and playing games with the reserve system. It's hard to get fired over a safety issue.

I just had a FAT call. Coming here I couldn’t wrap my mind around people calling super early for fatigue calls. Like 8-12hrs early but if people were getting fired or screwed with in the past it makes sense. Call early and try to minimize company disruption.
Reprimanding someone over a fatigue call isn’t a hill a company wants to get wounded on, especially if something happens.

 

[🦈💜]

Yeah. I was always told that fatigue is predictive. It’s not uncommon at all for guys to notify scheduling that they’ll be calling in fatigued after operating their next leg.

This is the exact opposite of how it is here. You can only call fatigued if you're actually, currently fatigued.

We've had people disciplined for "preemptive fatigue."

 

[🦈💜]

We need to have a higher standard for ourselves and certainly for a captain flying a 757 for a top global airline. This is supposed to be the “big leagues”.

Yeah, only tier 1 pilots need apply; the best of the best.