3 Years since ATP...The one year got me thinking...

[avi8tor1983]

A year post ATP got me thinking. I finished up at ATP (GKY) in May of 2007. I did do the CFI, CFII and MEI there. So I thought i'd tell a little of my story. May 2007 worked at a CFI gig in Denton, TX until February of 2008. I got hired on to Trans States. May 2008 FURLOUGH! Lovely right? Back to teaching. Taught at a University 141 Program until Aug. 2009. Laid off due to lack of students and my "Senior Instructor/Stage Check Airman" status costing the university to much to employ me. Since I wasn't a graduate of the college I along with 3 other 1100 hour dual given pilots were let go. October 2008 I went to Flight Express. I won't mention all the things wrong with that place. I'll just say gear failures happen quite often. Left there. December 2008. My first real interview with a Air Ambulance/Charter company. I'll know more about that come the end of the month but was baisiclly told I would be hired. They just have other interviewies to deal with. So since ATP. Thats life in aviation right there.

I'll put this out there. I'm over 1400 TT with over 300 ME. Not real high time, not real low time. What i've come across just totally boggles my mind. Since October I have been constantly looking for jobs. Here is what i've noticed. I am to high time for a CFI job. Everywhere that I have applied has not called me back or when they do they say they have chosen another. I have had 3 CP's tell me that the reason they don't want to hire me is because they are afraid i'd run off to an airline as soon as they pick back up! Think about it. Isn't that and the learning experiance what every CFI is out there for? The Charter company I am (crossing my fingers) currently persuing is another example. The CP sits me down to interview. Shows me a stack of resumes, there must of been 500 of them. Pulls one out with a guy with 17,000 hours. He says to me. I can't hire these ex 121 guys. They are to high time and they will take a jet job in a heart beat. Also they are so used to a glass cockpit they don't remember what steam gauge IFR is all about.

So here is my beef and my question. If a 1400 hour guy is to high time for a CFI gig and when the airlines start back up will be to low time for that. Where is he supposed to go in the meantime? Thats my rant and my question. If anyone has any insight into this please let me know. Cheers...:beer:

Forgive the spelling, i'm horrible at it and spell check didn't work lol

 

[Clocks]

You might be too low for the first round or two of interviews, but really by the time the regionals are hiring the majors should be winding up too (sucking up some of those high time folks).

I think, realistic worst case scenario, you'll be called for an interview at a regional shortly after hiring resume at normal rates. That might not mean much for the next 6-18 months though.

 

[avi8tor1983]

You might be too low for the first round or two of interviews, but really by the time the regionals are hiring the majors should be winding up too (sucking up some of those high time folks).

I think, realistic worst case scenario, you'll be called for an interview at a regional shortly after hiring resume at normal rates. That might not mean much for the next 6-18 months though.

Very true sir. I will agree with that for sure. I'm just sitting back waiting on this other job at the moment. Single pilot part 135 Charter/Air Ambulance in a 421. I could spend a couple years doing that and be happy.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

Show me a 1400 hour pilot who can't find a job and I'll show you a pilot who hasn't knocked on enough doors or shaken enough hands (i.e. networked). I'm not putting you down and I know how frustrating it can be to find dead ends everywhere you look. But someone out there will hire you with the times you've got. Your job is to keep knocking on doors and keep making contacts/networking until you find that someone.

And remember that there are always exceptions to the rules. For example you say that no flight school will hire you because you're too high time. But the reality is most flight schools won't hire you. Most is not the same as all. Keep looking until you find the one that will. Keep your chin up and keep on swinging until you find what you're looking for.

 

[avi8tor1983]

Show me a 1400 hour pilot who can't find a job and I'll show you a pilot who hasn't knocked on enough doors or shaken enough hands (i.e. networked). I'm not putting you down and I know how frustrating it can be to find dead ends everywhere you look. But someone out there will hire you with the times you've got. Your job is to keep knocking on doors and keep making contacts/networking until you find that someone.

And remember that there are always exceptions to the rules. For example you say that no flight school will hire you because you're too high time. But the reality is most flight schools won't hire you. Most is not the same as all. Keep looking until you find the one that will. Keep your chin up and keep on swinging until you find what you're looking for.

Thanks for the up beat attitude Joe. I know i'll find something out there. Being in Oklahoma there are not so many "doors" to knock on. I do my best at calling schools around Oklahoma and even out in Florida and in Cali. I just haven't found one yet. I didn't mean my post to sound like a sob story. Its seems to be how it reads. I do look as often as possible and you are correct that "most" schools won't hire me. I'll find something though. It always works well in the end. Thats for sure. It was crazy when the airlines were hiring at such little time and flight schools were desperate for CFI's. After I got mine there were 4 flight schools I was looking at before I got to choose one. Again it's not a sob story, but its a story on how aviation can go. Its ups and downs. Just looking for other guys like me out there.

 

[Socal321]

A year post ATP got me thinking. I finished up at ATP (GKY) in May of 2007. I did do the CFI, CFII and MEI there. So I thought i'd tell a little of my story. May 2007 worked at a CFI gig in Denton, TX until February of 2008. I got hired on to Trans States. May 2008 FURLOUGH! Lovely right? Back to teaching. Taught at a University 141 Program until Aug. 2009. Laid off due to lack of students and my "Senior Instructor/Stage Check Airman" status costing the university to much to employ me. Since I wasn't a graduate of the college I along with 3 other 1100 hour dual given pilots were let go. October 2008 I went to Flight Express. I won't mention all the things wrong with that place. I'll just say gear failures happen quite often. Left there. December 2008. My first real interview with a Air Ambulance/Charter company. I'll know more about that come the end of the month but was baisiclly told I would be hired. They just have other interviewies to deal with. So since ATP. Thats life in aviation right there.

I'll put this out there. I'm over 1400 TT with over 300 ME. Not real high time, not real low time. What i've come across just totally boggles my mind. Since October I have been constantly looking for jobs. Here is what i've noticed. I am to high time for a CFI job. Everywhere that I have applied has not called me back or when they do they say they have chosen another. I have had 3 CP's tell me that the reason they don't want to hire me is because they are afraid i'd run off to an airline as soon as they pick back up! Think about it. Isn't that and the learning experiance what every CFI is out there for? The Charter company I am (crossing my fingers) currently persuing is another example. The CP sits me down to interview. Shows me a stack of resumes, there must of been 500 of them. Pulls one out with a guy with 17,000 hours. He says to me. I can't hire these ex 121 guys. They are to high time and they will take a jet job in a heart beat. Also they are so used to a glass cockpit they don't remember what steam gauge IFR is all about.

So here is my beef and my question. If a 1400 hour guy is to high time for a CFI gig and when the airlines start back up will be to low time for that. Where is he supposed to go in the meantime? Thats my rant and my question. If anyone has any insight into this please let me know. Cheers...:beer:

Forgive the spelling, i'm horrible at it and spell check didn't work lol

You just described the issues facing most pilots out there. You are not alone. And I completely agree with you about the total time issue and it's just wrong, but they're the owners. I remember having the same conversation a few CPs about not wanting to hire furloughed CFIs that would leave for the airlines. Hello? Isn't that the whole point of CFIing to move on?? Everything seems wrong because people aren't hiring. There used to be a time where you'd hear back anywhere from 30 minutes to 24 hours after you submitted a resume, you won't see that for a while. At least you have TSA to look forward to.:beer:

 

[aloft]

This is the sort of myopia I see in a lot of CFIs. They see instructing or the airlines as their only options. At 1400 hrs, you've just barely met Part 135 IFR PIC mins, and there's a whole world of on-demand flying out there. Freight operators like Ameriflight or Martinaire aren't going to shy away from a 1400 hour pilot at all.

 

[avi8tor1983]

This is the sort of myopia I see in a lot of CFIs. They see instructing or the airlines as their only options. At 1400 hrs, you've just barely met Part 135 IFR PIC mins, and there's a whole world of on-demand flying out there. Freight operators like Ameriflight or Martinaire aren't going to shy away from a 1400 hour pilot at all.

Honestly, I applied at Ameriflight and I attached my resume in the new word format. They couldn't read it so I got lucky because they emailed me back to get me to send in an older word format. I was told when they would be reviewing resumes, never heard back. As far as Martinaire I have been updating my resume monthly. Even if I just flew 2 hours that month. I haven't heard a word from them.

On another note I have gotten a few PM's from guys telling me where to apply and where openings are. I greatly appreciate all the help this forum gives out. Its really amazing to see. Thanks to all!

 

[SatelliteBeachPilot]

Apply at Flight Safety in Vero Beach, give them a call. They are looking for experienced only instructors.

Go to the jobs section and read about it, Blizzue is a check instructor there and may be able to steer you in the right direction.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

Thanks for the up beat attitude Joe. I know i'll find something out there. Being in Oklahoma there are not so many "doors" to knock on. I do my best at calling schools around Oklahoma and even out in Florida and in Cali. I just haven't found one yet.

And that right there is one of the factors that motivated me to get out of professional aviation. Moving up the ladder generally means switching jobs. And more often than not, switching jobs means moving to where the next job is on a moments notice. Even if its some place you have zero desire to live. There's 50 states and you've listed only 3 of them. What's wrong with the other 47? I know that came out sounding like I'm slamming you but I'm not. Maybe you're already looking everywhere and you only listed those 3 specific areas. But if that's not the case, you really have to look in every corner of every state and you've got to be willing to move to where ever the next job is. That's just how the market is these days. Remember, you don't have to live in Toad Suck, Arkansas forever. But if that's where you find a school or a 135 operator (or better yet both) that's willing to hire you, then that's where you should be headed before sun down tomorrow.

Like I said, that was one of the factors that made me quit. It wasn't the only factor, but it was on the list. It's really hard to be able to just drop everything and go. But that's the nature of this beast sometimes.

And don't forget to consider the story of the tent and the camel and his nose. Getting a job is often about being in the right place at the right time. If you find a company that you'd like to fly for, but they're not hiring pilots right now, consider working for them in some other capacity. Doing so puts you in the right place pretty much all the time. Which means you'll be in the right place when the right time part happens.

Obviously that trick isn't practical in the 121 world. You're not going to take a job throwing bags on the ramp for Delta and end up in the cockpit. But I've known more than a few guys who pumped gas on the ramp and ended up finding themselves in a King Air or a Lear. And I've known guys who answered phones and swept floors at a large drop zone and ended up finding themselves in the left seat of a twin otter. It happens all the time, even in markets like this one. Once you're there, and they see that you show up sober every day and you don't complain, they become more motivated to move you into the next available seat rather than take a chance on a guy who they don't know and who might flake out on them. Even if that guy has better times than you.

It's tough out there, no doubt. But that just means you've got to use a little more creativity than it used to take. A positive attitude is key. And in times like this keeping positive can be the hardest task of all. But that's the game. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

[avi8tor1983]

There's 50 states and you've listed only 3 of them. What's wrong with the other 47?.

I have sent resumes ACROSS the U.S. and overseas. I mention the three I stated for the pure fact that they are where most flight schools are. Also the ones in FL and Cali seem to be the only ones even looking for employees.

It seems like you don't have a good attitude for those of us that are looking for a job in aviation right now? I will have to say I am not going to list every place i've applied since Aug of last year. If I did you would notice the 250+ resumes i've sent out. I am not going to list the places i've called, all though I could show you my phone bill. Aviation is ups and downs and I knew that coming into it. I keep my head up and I look hard for a new job every day of the week. I work my line crew job at a small airport and keep myself in aviation. I am not trying to be rude but the way you seem to put things is a little off, and not to my liking. I hope that you can realize that I didn't post this as a pitty party, even though thats how you seem to treat it. Other people have understood the post and its meaning. I don't think you have. If you got out of aviation i'm glad for you. I have a Business degree and i'm a short term away from my MBA. There is one problem. I LOVE TO FLY. Its what makes me happy. I don't want to sit in a office all day and do nothing but look at my cubical. Please don't take this harshly but I did post this on the ATP forum for a reason. To give the people out there the part of aviation most don't know. Not to convince people to get out of it.

 

[jeepthrills]

amen !:clap::yup:

 

[Cessna414JJB]

I have sent resumes ACROSS the U.S. and overseas. I mention the three I stated for the pure fact that they are where most flight schools are. Also the ones in FL and Cali seem to be the only ones even looking for employees.

It seems like you don't have a good attitude for those of us that are looking for a job in aviation right now? I will have to say I am not going to list every place i've applied since Aug of last year. If I did you would notice the 250+ resumes i've sent out. I am not going to list the places i've called, all though I could show you my phone bill. Aviation is ups and downs and I knew that coming into it. I keep my head up and I look hard for a new job every day of the week. I work my line crew job at a small airport and keep myself in aviation. I am not trying to be rude but the way you seem to put things is a little off, and not to my liking. I hope that you can realize that I didn't post this as a pitty party, even though thats how you seem to treat it. Other people have understood the post and its meaning. I don't think you have. If you got out of aviation i'm glad for you. I have a Business degree and i'm a short term away from my MBA. There is one problem. I LOVE TO FLY. Its what makes me happy. I don't want to sit in a office all day and do nothing but look at my cubical. Please don't take this harshly but I did post this on the ATP forum for a reason. To give the people out there the part of aviation most don't know. Not to convince people to get out of it.

Where do you read a negative attitude into JG's statements?
I am seriously at a loss finding where he put you down, or looks down upon us 'youngsters'... If you are not offering to fly for free, almost free or even try to pay people to teach them, you will have a great, literally endless supply of people, willing to keep an eye open for you. I guess SJS people suffer the most here.

In 2008 I was offered a job flying 172's out of Page. I had a wet ink Commercial with Instrument. It was literally the first job I applied for when I had my temp in hand. I had the offer within 3 hours after sending my resume with barely 400 hours. Since then, close to 500 resume's have gone out. Guess what... Now I sit squarely at 600/100 with nowhere to go. There have been 3 JC members, helpful in locating employment for me. That went all the way to AK.

Just for info, the average number of flight hours on the resumes I received when trying to hire a CFI was 3.400 hours. Most had more than 1.000 dual given. Relax, not many people go far, right now. Employers have the upper hand for now and likely will remain to keep it, as the supply of fresh meat is endless and prices are in the basement. CFI, MEI, CFII - a dime a dozen.

 

[nocturnalaviator]

I have sent resumes ACROSS the U.S. and overseas. I mention the three I stated for the pure fact that they are where most flight schools are. Also the ones in FL and Cali seem to be the only ones even looking for employees.

It seems like you don't have a good attitude for those of us that are looking for a job in aviation right now? I will have to say I am not going to list every place i've applied since Aug of last year. If I did you would notice the 250+ resumes i've sent out. I am not going to list the places i've called, all though I could show you my phone bill. Aviation is ups and downs and I knew that coming into it. I keep my head up and I look hard for a new job every day of the week. I work my line crew job at a small airport and keep myself in aviation. I am not trying to be rude but the way you seem to put things is a little off, and not to my liking. I hope that you can realize that I didn't post this as a pitty party, even though thats how you seem to treat it. Other people have understood the post and its meaning. I don't think you have. If you got out of aviation i'm glad for you. I have a Business degree and i'm a short term away from my MBA. There is one problem. I LOVE TO FLY. Its what makes me happy. I don't want to sit in a office all day and do nothing but look at my cubical. Please don't take this harshly but I did post this on the ATP forum for a reason. To give the people out there the part of aviation most don't know. Not to convince people to get out of it.

Then just quit! Grow some, and do it on your own like most people have to OUTSIDE of aviation. You can't always do what you want sometimes. Not to your liking, so your trying to find someone who will tickle you in the right way to make you feel better about yourself and hardships? Ugh this is the last time I post here, I wasn't going to in the first place, but damn I had to. Ridiculous. Whine Whine Whine Get a real job, manual labor feel good about yourself get some exercise and feel good about life! Because life is STILL GOOD believe it or not! Look at Haiti. Be thankful and zip it.

 

[SteveC]

Then just quit! Grow some, and do it on your own like most people have to OUTSIDE of aviation. You can't always do what you want sometimes. Not to your liking, so your trying to find someone who will tickle you in the right way to make you feel better about yourself and hardships? Ugh this is the last time I post here, I wasn't going to in the first place, but damn I had to. Ridiculous. Whine Whine Whine Get a real job, manual labor feel good about yourself get some exercise and feel good about life! Because life is STILL GOOD believe it or not! Look at Haiti. Be thankful and zip it.

Ah, late night constructive suggestions! Cool beans.

 

[Flyman36]

Then just quit! Grow some, and do it on your own like most people have to OUTSIDE of aviation. You can't always do what you want sometimes. Not to your liking, so your trying to find someone who will tickle you in the right way to make you feel better about yourself and hardships? Ugh this is the last time I post here, I wasn't going to in the first place, but damn I had to. Ridiculous. Whine Whine Whine Get a real job, manual labor feel good about yourself get some exercise and feel good about life! Because life is STILL GOOD believe it or not! Look at Haiti. Be thankful and zip it.

WELL SAID (for a Jersey boy)