United Sues Pilots Union

[surreal1221]

Perhaps I'm lost. . .but care to expound on why you find that ironic? (The quote that you posted with the photo - not the photo - obviously a KKK member getting his ass lite up instead of the Cross - is well, yes Ironic).

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Perhaps I'm lost. . .but care to expound on why you find that ironic? (The quote that you posted with the photo - not the photo - obviously a KKK member getting his ass lite up instead of the Cross - is well, yes Ironic).

Probably because of how emotional he gets on these subjects.

Here is my view from the outside guys, so I would think my mindset would be that of the general public:

I would be careful if I were the pilot's union. The airline is probably on its last legs, like most airlines and if the pilots have been engaging in illegal activies (this has yet to be determined), then I feel no sympathy for them. With that said, I am disgusted with the way the airlines are managed and can't believe that some of these places are still around.

Why has ALPA decided at this time to try to push for more pay/benefits for their pilots, when the airline is having to cut expenses? It seems like a recipe for disaster, with hostility on both sides.

I don't see this as a good move by ALPA, if they are in fact, calling for these activities. To me, this can only be bad for the pilots.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Probably because of how emotional he gets on these subjects.

I never get emotional. You and Emu may think you have me all figured out, but you couldn't be more wrong.

Here is my view from the outside guys, so I would think my mindset would be that of the general public:

I would be careful if I were the pilot's union. The airline is probably on its last legs, like most airlines and if the pilots have been engaging in illegal activies (this has yet to be determined), then I feel no sympathy for them. With that said, I am disgusted with the way the airlines are managed and can't believe that some of these places are still around.

Why has ALPA decided at this time to try to push for more pay/benefits for their pilots, when the airline is having to cut expenses? It seems like a recipe for disaster, with hostility on both sides.

I don't see this as a good move by ALPA, if they are in fact, calling for these activities. To me, this can only be bad for the pilots.

ALPA hasn't advocated any illegal activities whatsoever. Individual pilots may have, but ALPA has no control over what their members do.

 

[surreal1221]

Once again. . .there is a significant difference in "ALPA", individual pilots who are ALPA members, ALPA National, the numerous MECs, and even more numerous LECs that all form the association.

We wouldn't want the finer details to be utilized in the proper manner though, so excuse me.

 

[mikecweb]

Here is something you two probably won't expect...

Surreal and PCL, I hope the two of you stay in this industry a long long time. Although your over-the-top ALPA cheerleading can be annoying at time, considering both of your current positions in the industry, your devotion to bettering the profession is obvious and unfortunately that is probably getting lost and forgotten by most on this website. This industry needs guys like you to balance out the guys that "just want to fly". Even though the two of you are a tough pill to swallow sometime I'm sure over beers everyone here could have a good time, laugh, tell lies, and chase women.

That being said....
I think what annoys most guys is the apparent blind devotion to the "Association". The tone of your posts is that ALPA never has and never will do anything wrong. It's a large group of folks and there will always be corruption, lying, and deceit. If you want to get the masses to follow your direction you gotta try and give a more realistic view of things sometimes. I think at times you two might be singing the war chant too loudly to even listen to the concerns of the line pilots that don't yet fully realize that ALPA is more then a place to send a part of their paycheck. Sometimes I laugh at it and sometimes I shake my head that the good guys aren't getting their message across.

Keep fighting the good fight but perhaps look at polishing the message, especially the delivery.

 

[surreal1221]

Did someone mention chasing women?



Mike, pal, ol' friend. . .

I know there are many negative aspects of the association. Many.

Unfortunately, it does no good to provide the imagery neccessary to those who we want to join the ranks and stand up and fight the good fight.

I won't blindly follow ALPA (National) anywhere. . .what I will do. . .and I expect many would agree - is follow your local leadership until they turn on you, then it's time to turn on them and send them packing. The way the association is organized and set up it really doesn't yield itself to the "revolution" that many of us feel we need. It's unfortunate, but until a number of us with the same views (of making things better - not only for the profession, but also the collective body that is ALPA) are in a position to do such - there isn't much we can do.

So yes, there are negative aspects. . .the most glaring though is not ALPA's fault. The RLA is significantly flawed, and it needs changing. Perhaps with the chance to change the political landscape of this country come November we can have a much more level playing field to develop the changes we feel we need.

Don't blame the players (ALPA, Unions in general), blame the game (RLA, Anti-Labor legislation, Anti-Labor Politicians). We are all in this together, not as airline pilots or even as pilots. . .but as skilled labor - even the baggers at Wal-Mart.

Cheerleading and following, I am not. Following my inner devotion to improving work rules for every profession out there in this great country, following my desire to excel and use my education and overall previous life experiences to offer change and betterment for OUR profession. . .I am, or I'd like to think that one day I'll be able to much more effectively than seen on an online web forum.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Here is something you two probably won't expect...

Surreal and PCL, I hope the two of you stay in this industry a long long time. Although your over-the-top ALPA cheerleading can be annoying at time, considering both of your current positions in the industry, your devotion to bettering the profession is obvious and unfortunately that is probably getting lost and forgotten by most on this website. This industry needs guys like you to balance out the guys that "just want to fly". Even though the two of you are a tough pill to swallow sometime I'm sure over beers everyone here could have a good time, laugh, tell lies, and chase women.

That being said....
I think what annoys most guys is the apparent blind devotion to the "Association". The tone of your posts is that ALPA never has and never will do anything wrong. It's a large group of folks and there will always be corruption, lying, and deceit. If you want to get the masses to follow your direction you gotta try and give a more realistic view of things sometimes. I think at times you two might be singing the war chant too loudly to even listen to the concerns of the line pilots that don't yet fully realize that ALPA is more then a place to send a part of their paycheck. Sometimes I laugh at it and sometimes I shake my head that the good guys aren't getting their message across.

Keep fighting the good fight but perhaps look at polishing the message, especially the delivery.

Wow, I think that's the nicest you've ever been to me, Mike. Thanks, and I get what you're saying about "polishing" the message. But I think you have the wrong impression if you feel that I see no wrong in ALPA. To the contrary, ALPA is a mess. The senior leaders are ignoring the rank-and-file membership, the A-carriers are constantly pitting themselves against the B-carriers and vice-versa, the coffers are dwindling, etc... If you saw the private emails that go back and forth between myself and other current and former ALPA reps talking about the problems with ALPA, you'd probably be completely shocked.

However, as Josh said, it does absolutely no good to focus on the problems and do nothing but a bunch of whining and attacking. Overall, the Association is a force for good in this profession and this industry. It has many faults, just as any large organization does, and pilots will be working to fix those faults for as long as the Association exists, but you can work within the system and effect a lot of positive change. Attacking the Association and constantly pointing out the flaws will benefit no one. Refusing to look past the mistakes of the past will benefit no one. Looking forward and focusing on what we can do to better the Association and the profession is the way to go.

 

[WacoFan]

People like Hoffa make guys feel good, but they don't get things done. Guys like Duane Woerth and Paul Rice get things done. They're militant, but they know how to channel their militancy. The new UAL MEC Chairman, Captain Wallach, is a perfect example of this. He knows which battles to fight, and he knows that acting like a bunch of immature little kids like USAPA won't get him anywhere. Remember, this is all politics. The smart politicians are the ones that get things done. The emotional little girls are the ones that will sink you.

I just want to clarify...I may be reading this wrong.

Are you implying that Jimmy Hoffa, John L. Lewis and Joe Hill were "emotional little girls" and that you think Duane Woerth or Paul Rice are larger trade unionists than the above mentioned? Really???

 

[surreal1221]

But just to explain. . .I'm not saying NOT to focus on the problems.

The problems ARE being focused on, and from where I sit. . .we can only do so much at a time to correct these problems.

But to focus on the problems, in a public environment, especially when it comes to trying to build the relationship between ALL professional pilots, really doesn't help the mission.

Problems do exist, but if we are to move beyond them and correct them - we need people who really truely believe and can see the good work that is being done rather than focusing on the negatives and giving up. That's what I'm saying.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I just want to clarify...I may be reading this wrong.

Are you implying that Jimmy Hoffa, John L. Lewis and Joe Hill were "emotional little girls" and that you think Duane Woerth or Paul Rice are larger trade unionists than the above mentioned? Really???

John L. Lewis was a great man, and did a hell of a lot to advance the labor movement in this country. Jimmy Hoffa's contributions to labor will always be overshadowed by his rampant corruption and illegal activities. Because of that, he has stained the labor movement forever in the eyes of millions of Americans, and that damage will probably never be undone. No one has done more to soil the good name of labor than Jimmy Hoffa did. As for Joe Hill, although it's up for debate whether he actually did it or not, he was convicted and executed for murder.

 

[Maurus]

With nearly every aspect of the company being unionized, the company itself has very little power over the company. If they piss off just one union, the entire company goes down the whole. With that said, I am not surprised. They already have had worse behavior (late 1990's) from their pilots, this is probably just a preemptive move till they (United Pilots) start delaying flights and canceling flights for no reason. I'm not saying ALPA does that, but the pilots that United has hired tend to be go overboard and as said before is not a union thing but just a pilot group.

Unfortunately what is the only way to sue/punish your pilots? Sue the union they are with.

 

[surreal1221]

hole.

(now that any confusion has been cleared up )

 

[surreal1221]

In an effort to return this thread to it's originally scheduled programming:

"The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

How’s your summer going? Just in time for the long, hot, busy summer season, United Airlines is implementing and refining some new methods to erode your job and quality of life even further. This company’s contempt for its employees is further proof that United is flying itself into the ground and doesn't care who it takes down with it -- not you, not me, not its customers. In the meantime, the executives continue to enrich themselves from the company’s coffers.

Here are some examples of management’s patented morale-boosting initiatives that make United Airlines such a desired place to work.

● For starters, we've all heard of United's plans to use our pilots and their families as expendable commodities in an attempt to correct its inability to contain costs or adequately plan for the future. Some of the soon-to-be-furloughed pilots, who relied on United’s good faith to come back, are being let go a second time. Who will ever again have faith in United Airlines? But first, United will work your heinies off for the summer with maximum hours and minimum days off (flex months), and then fire you. How's your summer going?

● To assist United in its unwillingness to maintain any workable and flexible trip trading system, management will refocus and lower the trigger points for Absence Monitoring System (AMS) events, questioning a pilot’s compliance with FARs regarding "fit to fly.” And if they don't believe you, you will be required to visit a doctor and pay for it out of your own pocket since our company will not reimburse you. Oh, and we understand from reliable sources that the company plans on taking away pass travel while you’re on sick list and, this time around, your family too. How's your summer going?

● In a blatant attempt to erode, if not eliminate, Captain’s Authority, First Officers are soon to replace Captain’s as FODMs. As you are aware, FODMs have the ability to order Captains to fly. Even though many First Officers have the experience and capability, United will be breeding an environment where there will be First Officers ordering Captains to fly, questioning Captains’ decisions and placing Captains in defensive positions. How’s your summer going?

● With the expected shift in flying, many domiciles will temporarily pick up other domiciles’ flying. This will result in many W-patterns, flying 6 day trips with 4 oceanic crossings. When the flying becomes aligned with the domiciles, your reward for having worked your keisters off will be more surpluses. Reread the first bullet point. How’s your summer going?

To summarize, United’s managers will force pilots to work extra days with longer hours, they will bully pilots to prove their non-fitness to fly at their own expense, they will attempt to take away pass travel for you and your family, they will attempt to diminish Captain’s authority, they will take away United mainline flying and give it away to Express, and then they will either furlough you or surplus you at the end of the season. No one will be unaffected by the continually bad decisions United makes every day. Fatigue, stress, illness, exhaustion, anger, fear, depression, resentment, uncertainty, frustration and disrespect are all being crammed down our throats by a company that gives not a damn about goodwill, morale, its employees or its customers.

So, how’s your summer going?

Leverage does not just show up, unannounced, on one’s doorstep. Unified pilots create leverage.

UNITY OF PURPOSE BRINGS POWER

THERE IS POWER IN UNITY"

 

[Maurus]

Lets pick this apart a bit.

"The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

How’s your summer going? Just in time for the long, hot, busy summer season, United Airlines is implementing and refining some new methods to erode your job and quality of life even further. This company’s contempt for its employees is further proof that United is flying itself into the ground and doesn't care who it takes down with it -- not you, not me, not its customers. In the meantime, the executives continue to enrich themselves from the company’s coffers.

Here are some examples of management’s patented morale-boosting initiatives that make United Airlines such a desired place to work.

● For starters, we've all heard of United's plans to use our pilots and their families as expendable commodities in an attempt to correct its inability to contain costs or adequately plan for the future. Some of the soon-to-be-furloughed pilots, who relied on United’s good faith to come back, are being let go a second time. Who will ever again have faith in United Airlines? But first, United will work your heinies off for the summer with maximum hours and minimum days off (flex months), and then fire you. How's your summer going?

You should know that if you come back to an airline there will be a chance to get furloughed again. There is equal responsibility for the pilots as well as United on that part. We all know the airline industry is cyclical and the potential for furlough wont magically go away.

Also, did they just replace furlough with fire or am I missing something?

● To assist United in its unwillingness to maintain any workable and flexible trip trading system, management will refocus and lower the trigger points for Absence Monitoring System (AMS) events, questioning a pilot’s compliance with FARs regarding "fit to fly.” And if they don't believe you, you will be required to visit a doctor and pay for it out of your own pocket since our company will not reimburse you. Oh, and we understand from reliable sources that the company plans on taking away pass travel while you’re on sick list and, this time around, your family too. How's your summer going?

Unless you are traveling home, you shouldn't be traveling while sick. I understand the problem if traveling home but I hope you aren't traveling to Orlando for the day while "sick". Also just saying reliable sources isn't very reliable for the reader :banghead:

● In a blatant attempt to erode, if not eliminate, Captain’s Authority, First Officers are soon to replace Captain’s as FODMs. As you are aware, FODMs have the ability to order Captains to fly. Even though many First Officers have the experience and capability, United will be breeding an environment where there will be First Officers ordering Captains to fly, questioning Captains’ decisions and placing Captains in defensive positions. How’s your summer going?

Yes and no. An FO should not be able to tell a Captain to fly, but a good FO should be able to question what a Captain is doing. Not only question, but act on a potential problem the Captain may have caused. What good is an FO if they can't question the Captain or put them on the spot. Yes the Captain is the PIC, but if they are breaking regs or putting the aircraft in an unsafe position, the FO is equally as responsible for the safety of those on bored the aircraft.

● With the expected shift in flying, many domiciles will temporarily pick up other domiciles’ flying. This will result in many W-patterns, flying 6 day trips with 4 oceanic crossings. When the flying becomes aligned with the domiciles, your reward for having worked your keisters off will be more surpluses. Reread the first bullet point. How’s your summer going?

To summarize, United’s managers will force pilots to work extra days with longer hours, they will bully pilots to prove their non-fitness to fly at their own expense, they will attempt to take away pass travel for you and your family, they will attempt to diminish Captain’s authority, they will take away United mainline flying and give it away to Express, and then they will either furlough you or surplus you at the end of the season. No one will be unaffected by the continually bad decisions United makes every day. Fatigue, stress, illness, exhaustion, anger, fear, depression, resentment, uncertainty, frustration and disrespect are all being crammed down our throats by a company that gives not a damn about goodwill, morale, its employees or its customers.

So, how’s your summer going?

Leverage does not just show up, unannounced, on one’s doorstep. Unified pilots create leverage.

UNITY OF PURPOSE BRINGS POWER

THERE IS POWER IN UNITY"

Ah! There it is! The striving for power. I knew there was a power tug of war between the unions and management, but no one wants to admit it is a problem.

Now the word purpose in the above seems to be getting the pilot group angry. The sarcasm sure does help the tone . Attempting to fix a problem like this wont help if the problem only gets exaggerated by anger.

In my overall review, the tone and the attempt to improve the profession from this United ALPA representative is not conducive to actually improving the profession but instead causing more anger and frustration in the pilot group. By doing so will only cause a larger gap between the management and pilot group. This pilot group already doesn't have the best rep when they don't get what they want. Hopefully this type of anger inducing messages stop. This type of behavior is one reason why the pilot profession is no longer viewed as prestigious.

 

[surreal1221]

Prestigious. . .

Interesting word choice. I'll allow someone else to chomp first though.

 

[BobDDuck]

What makes you think the goal of this info campaign ISN'T to make the pilot group angry? I think it pretty much spot on for what the United MEC is trying to accomplish.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Here is something you two probably won't expect...

Surreal and PCL, I hope the two of you stay in this industry a long long time. Although your over-the-top ALPA cheerleading can be annoying at time, considering both of your current positions in the industry, your devotion to bettering the profession is obvious and unfortunately that is probably getting lost and forgotten by most on this website. This industry needs guys like you to balance out the guys that "just want to fly". Even though the two of you are a tough pill to swallow sometime I'm sure over beers everyone here could have a good time, laugh, tell lies, and chase women.

That being said....
I think what annoys most guys is the apparent blind devotion to the "Association". The tone of your posts is that ALPA never has and never will do anything wrong. It's a large group of folks and there will always be corruption, lying, and deceit. If you want to get the masses to follow your direction you gotta try and give a more realistic view of things sometimes. I think at times you two might be singing the war chant too loudly to even listen to the concerns of the line pilots that don't yet fully realize that ALPA is more then a place to send a part of their paycheck. Sometimes I laugh at it and sometimes I shake my head that the good guys aren't getting their message across.

Keep fighting the good fight but perhaps look at polishing the message, especially the delivery.

Dude, get out of my brain!

I do want to point out, though I pick on you guys a lot, I'm sure you're great guys and its nothing personal. I guess I'm not picking on you personally, but rather the actions that Mike summed up even better than I could (I guess they're teaching freight dogs how to write now!)

ALPA is important, I agree that they're very necessary and even share a lot of your viewpoints on things. But they're not perfect and not every single thread needs to be about ALPA.

Again, its nothing personal and I'm sure I'd enjoy sitting down and enjoying a few adult beverages with you guys. But if you spend the whole night talking about ALPA, at some point in time I would probably stick my fingers in my ears and start making noises.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Again, its nothing personal and I'm sure I'd enjoy sitting down and enjoying a few adult beverages with you guys.

All three of us live in tha ATL. Let's make it happen!

 

[Maurus]

What makes you think the goal of this info campaign ISN'T to make the pilot group angry? I think it pretty much spot on for what the United MEC is trying to accomplish.

I never said it wasn't the goal. I am saying it shouldn't be the goal. What you said I can't really disagree with actually as it does seem the United MEC's intent was to make the pilot group angry. Knowing the pilot group's past, getting them angry is not the answer. At the worst, it could put them all out of a job.

United files Chapter 7! Yeah that will show em!

Oh, wait...



Now I know some things I said could be wrong as I don't know the entire story, but then again I don't think anyone on this board does. As the members of ALPA get one side of the story while not actually hearing the management's side except through messages like the above which with the heavy sarcasm at the end of each point only brings the idea of heavy bias against the management.

I am personally not taking sides, I just see this message from the United MEC and only think "Wow this doesn't help! This only makes problems worse!"

Prestigious. . .

Interesting word choice. I'll allow someone else to chomp first though.

Maybe too luxurious of a word, but I believe about 6 months ago there was a thread of a lot of the pilots on here that were just talking about how the airline pilots are no longer viewed the way they used to be. Same with flying. It came about after watching some old commercials and the new foreign commercials. I'll see if I can find the thread, but many people would agree that the perception of a lot of the general public these days for pilots is that they are a glorified bus driver.

 

[surreal1221]

In my short lived experience as a 121 pilot, and more importantly - self education related to the profession courtesy of numerous texts. . .the profession was never supposed to be prestigious. Rather, it was propped up as such by of all things - the media (you realize this as you indicated with commercials of all things, etc).

Choose the medium of the time, and flying - in and of itself - was once a very well thought of and "prestigious" event. Now, the actual act of piloting the machines. . .I don't necessarily believe that act was ever prestigious, certainly not to the levels that we are told about courtesy of the media forms available during aviation's infancy in this country.

Maurus, have you read Flying the Line Vol I? [Don't take that as me telling you to read it. . .]

ALPA is important, I agree that they're very necessary and even share a lot of your viewpoints on things. But they're not perfect and not every single thread needs to be about ALPA.

Again, its nothing personal and I'm sure I'd enjoy sitting down and enjoying a few adult beverages with you guys. But if you spend the whole night talking about ALPA, at some point in time I would probably stick my fingers in my ears and start making noises.

Trust me, I'd much rather talk about chasing tail than discussing ALPA, or any trade union for that matter over drinks. That is, so long as the scenery is up to the task.

I know you're good intentioned, or perhaps I just start out with saying "You know what, this guy's probably not such an ####### in real life, and he probably loves little furry animals - I'll give him the benefit of the doubt."

Nevertheless. . .I certainly don't see that every thread in this forum needs to be about ALPA. But, I will stand by the position that communication (conversation) needs to occur. Especially in this "web-environment" considering the minds that very well can be molded and shaped with guidance and knowledge. I know I needed it, and I'm thankful for the information that I was able to gain about all segments of the industry, union or not.

Sure, it may appear overkill at times - I can certainly agree to that - but at the same time I'm able to recognize the goodwill and overall educational benefits that are occuring. That's all.

All three of us live in tha ATL. Let's make it happen!

Agreed. . .airport appreciation sit on Sunday - just in case either of you (or anyone for that matter) is in the confines of ATL for a lunch perhaps.

And drinks at a future date of course.