Southwest tries to redecorate LGA tower

[Inverted]

I’m not surprised, the lack of spacial awareness, configuration, etc is kinda shocking. You have to “think in 3D” with this job and all you need to know is your distance, speed, and alt to the runway. It’s not that hard.

Ok since you got me on a rant I see guys all the time can’t even fathom increasing airspeed in a descent gets you down quicker, then go to idle and level off for the speed restriction.

Maybe “energy management” isn’t really taught anymore?

Dude, now you're gonna get me started...

I agree though, I haven't seen an FO turn the FDs off since I upgraded and it has been in both airplanes, the Bus and 737. When I was transitioning to the 737 I called for the FDs off when they gave us a last-minute runway change and the FO said "no, we can't do that" lol.

The energy management thing is fascinating to me but it is for sure the culture of the 737 and how we train and fly it. With having to slow so much to configure with flaps, and the way people are scared to use speed to their advantage really shows that energy management is not really taught. Configuring when the conditions are perfect is fine but when the dynamics of flying take over, it is simply 'throw the gear out 13 miles out and 9k high because why not?"

 

[Skåning]

Dude, now you're gonna get me started...

I agree though, I haven't seen an FO turn the FDs off since I upgraded and it has been in both airplanes, the Bus and 737. When I was transitioning to the 737 I called for the FDs off when they gave us a last-minute runway change and the FO said "no, we can't do that" lol.

The energy management thing is fascinating to me but it is for sure the culture of the 737 and how we train and fly it. With having to slow so much to configure with flaps, and the way people are scared to use speed to their advantage really shows that energy management is not really taught. Configuring when the conditions are perfect is fine but when the dynamics of flying take over, it is simply 'throw the gear out 13 miles out and 9k high because why not?"

Preaching to the choir. I enjoy seeing the panic in their faces when I have speed brakes out and ask for flaps 10.

Almost every time they fly and drop the gear waaaaay da fuq out, we level off at some point and brrrrr the N1s go up and we sit there trucking along. Smh

 

[Roger Roger]

Counterpoint, where are you going to learn energy management in the airplane when 75% plus of the places you go, you’re getting slowed and vectored and stepped down by ATC anyway? And certainly the checking I mean training center ain’t gonna teach you. At least speaking for myself as an FNG, the only time I really got to play with it much was SE OE, and only because it was beautiful and clear. Oh and again as a Junior guy, half the time you’re coming out of back to back redeye transcons and the finer points of energy management take a back seat to “easy button”.

 

[JordanD]

I’ve pretty much stopped issuing visual approaches to 121 because y’all don’t turn towards the airport anymore. Instead yall (generic yall) square off base to final and wind up flying 2-3 miles more than if I had just vectored for the ILS.

I mean, depending on when you’re clearing them, when do you expect us to turn? I’ve been cleared for a visual abeam the numbers before. There’s times I hesitate to call the airport because I’m expecting to get a visual approach clearance with a turn that clearly isn’t going to work for our altitude or speed.

 

[Roger Roger]

Preaching to the choir. I enjoy seeing the panic in their faces when I have speed brakes out and ask for flaps 10.

This is definitely on the training department for the “wellll technically it’s allowed buttttt….” Attitude

 

[Skåning]

This is definitely on the training department for the “wellll technically it’s allowed buttttt….” Attitude

Yeah you’d think they’d having a better handle on teaching the Guppy after a gazillion years, but this was my fourth type rating and the first I’d ever seen a limitation section mention “wear and tear”.

I will use every control surface available when needed and don’t operate the aircraft with consideration of part lifespan extension
***stares at SNA landing gear pin thingies

 

[Roger Roger]

Yeah you’d think they’d having a better handle on teaching the Guppy after a gazillion years, but this was my fourth type rating and the first I’d ever seen a limitation section mention “wear and tear”.

I will use every control surface available when needed and don’t operate the aircraft with consideration of part lifespan extension
***stares at SNA landing gear pin thingies

I dunno, practically every operator I’ve worked for has suggested not yeeting the flaps out right at Vfe which is a pretty similar deal

 

[JDean3204]

I turn the FD off every time I am hand flying a visual and click auto off, that way I don’t have to ask the other person to select this or select that, I got the runway, I’m gon land.

That’s if I’m on a base, downwind or whatnot. If I fly automation onto final and everything is set up I’ll leave the FD up, since I know I’m not going to leave the guidance or ask for any other buttons to be pushed.

I’ve just briefed it, and only did it in places that aren’t major hub airports. Except for once in LAX, got the slam dunk turn and said well shoot, we’re going to be high if I keep all this stuff on, cool if I click it all off?? CA said go for it.

Best airport in the system for energy management humble pie is the visual into PSP, eff that place.

I feel I throw the gear out earlier than I should at times, still learning what the plane will and won’t do and my conservative nature really hates getting caught with my pants down.

The one thing I’ve gotten the “you’re kinda weird dude” look for is asking for a 10 call in the flare. At night in the rain, I have a hard time judging how close I am to the ground and we don’t have the radalt calls. I know that’s no where in the book, but it does help me out.

 

[Skåning]

I dunno, practically every operator I’ve worked for has suggested not yeeting the flaps out right at Vfe which is a pretty similar deal

Totally but if the placard says 200 and you ask for them at 190 we should be kosher

 

[Skåning]

Best airport in the system for energy management humble pie is the visual into PSP, eff that place.

I feel I throw the gear out earlier than I should at times, still learning what the plane will and won’t do and my conservative nature really hates getting caught with my pants down.

The one thing I’ve gotten the “you’re kinda weird dude” look for is asking for a 10 call in the flare.

- personal pref at PSP is ask for the full approach and not let them have you cut the corner. You’d literally need to be at ref speed and full flaps coming over the mountains from the north to make the runway with the directs they’d push you to take

- you throw the gear out early as you’re finding your comfort zone, that’s understandable

- consider looking at the RA on the PFD as a quick glance in the flare. It helped me a lot in the ERJ and the Bus whether to hold off more or let the nose down. With the HUD it’s a huge help cus I can see the RA

 

[JDean3204]

- personal pref at PSP is ask for the full approach and not let them have you cut the corner. You’d literally need to be at ref speed and full flaps coming over the mountains from the north to make the runway with the directs they’d push you to take

- you throw the gear out early as you’re finding your comfort zone, that’s understandable

- consider looking at the RA on the PFD as a quick glance in the flare. It helped me a lot in the ERJ and the Bus whether to hold off more or let the nose down. With the HUD it’s a huge help cus I can see the RA

I usually sneak a glance at the PFD when the numbers disappear under the nose, lets me know how close I am to 50 crossing the threshold. Then two potatoes and flare lol.

It’s only at night in the rain when I don’t have the good feeling and sight setting it down. I’ll try a quick glance next time!

 

[NovemberEcho]

I mean, depending on when you’re clearing them, when do you expect us to turn? I’ve been cleared for a visual abeam the numbers before. There’s times I hesitate to call the airport because I’m expecting to get a visual approach clearance with a turn that clearly isn’t going to work for our altitude or speed.

For example you’re coming into EWR on the Williamsport and sent SWEET GRITY, which almost a 90 degree base leg. Cleared for the visual….and you fly to GRITY and “intercept” with a 90 degree turn rather than turning in for a dog leg. This is with no other traffic in front of you.

 

[Crockrocket94]

I’ve pretty much stopped issuing visual approaches to 121 because y’all don’t turn towards the airport anymore. Instead yall (generic yall) square off base to final and wind up flying 2-3 miles more than if I had just vectored for the ILS.

I get a visual and I start towards the runway- it just says STABLE at 1000 feet in the FOM, not perfectly on the localizer/Path.

 

[jtrain609]

As a tower controller I never considered the winds aloft until I got to a tower that lost its tracon. We had the winds aloft display there and often used it to make configuration choices.

My experience in New York was that our configuration was often guided more by the airlines than what was actually happening on the ground. Once per shift there was a telecon where all the interested parties came to an agreement on runway configuration. Very often the wind would be favoring a 31 operation but we'd be landing 4R/22L and departing 4L/22R while also departing 31L@KE for RBVs only because the airlines would want to see 2 departure runways open for the morning push. In most instances there would never be a line at 31L so it wasn't much relief, but you know, gov/capitalist logic.

I am sure @NovemberEcho can elaborate more about what happens in the airspace when unusual configurations are required. (Like a straight in to 13L at JFK)

I always thought you guys just liked watching us do crosswind landings.

 

[Kingairer]

I’ve pretty much stopped issuing visual approaches to 121 because y’all don’t turn towards the airport anymore. Instead yall (generic yall) square off base to final and wind up flying 2-3 miles more than if I had just vectored for the ILS.

and thats ok with me. Just vector us to intercept outside of the FAF and all is well.

 

[roundout]

For example you’re coming into EWR on the Williamsport and sent SWEET GRITY, which almost a 90 degree base leg. Cleared for the visual….and you fly to GRITY and “intercept” with a 90 degree turn rather than turning in for a dog leg. This is with no other traffic in front of you.

In some airplanes, turning inside the marker (or going direct the airport, for that matter) can mess the FMS up. This isn’t a great excuse, there are workarounds, but it’s a thing.

 

[adk]

For example you’re coming into EWR on the Williamsport and sent SWEET GRITY, which almost a 90 degree base leg. Cleared for the visual….and you fly to GRITY and “intercept” with a 90 degree turn rather than turning in for a dog leg. This is with no other traffic in front of you.

If you just clear us for the visual with no other instructions, telling the plane to go direct to GRITY and join there is easier, so that's what a lot of pilots will do. We are lazy, and getting on the ground 40 seconds faster rarely matters to us. If you want us to tighten it up, "070 heading to join, cleared visual 4R" is fine too. That's not hard. We're just lazy. It's pretty uncommon for any busy TRACON to clear us for a visual unless we're already tracking the localizer or giving us a heading to join final.

 

[Toobdrvr]

Sure, when cleared visual, I could cut the corner and IF I get everything right, “shack” everything (alignment, config, speed, etc) right at 1000’ and look like a stud. BUT, if one thing doesn’t happen just right, things could get pear-shaped real quick and there’s no one to blame but me. Therefore, if I get cut loose, I usually add an extra mile or two “just in case” (windshift, distraction, etc).

I probably set up my visuals a leeeetle more conservatively than ATC. Especially in NYC…

 

[Toobdrvr]

Also, usually by the time ATC clears us visual, we’re already set up on a pretty good conservative intercept. Just push the “APPCH” PB and watch the magic!!!

 

[Kingairer]

Sure, when cleared visual, I could cut the corner and IF I get everything right, “shack” everything (alignment, config, speed, etc) right at 1000’ and look like a stud. BUT, if one thing doesn’t happen just right, things could get pear-shaped real quick and there’s no one to blame but me. Therefore, if I get cut loose, I usually add an extra mile or two “just in case” (windshift, distraction, etc).

I probably set up my visuals a leeeetle more conservatively than ATC. Especially in NYC…

Seconded.