Southwest tries to redecorate LGA tower
- Thread starter NovemberEcho
- Start date
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Yes that is very real.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Airbus: While am a believer in turning the automation off when it’s taking you somewhere you don’t want to be..”click click click click” should really be red flag and both pilots should be sitting up, things should really never get to that point.
I’ll offer an incident to relate my point.
An Airbus was flying in late night somewhere, crew forgets to activate approach phase, gets cleared a visual, is a bit high but making it work, then goes to managed speed which throws there speed to 250 instead of slowing, they’re already behind and now they really are , so click click manual thrust to idle to deactivate TL and unwanted thrust…gets back on glide path and never returns back to TLs forgetting it’s no longer in auto thrust on, speed decays and they drag the tail in and take care of some approach lights in the process. Beware of “click click” to fix a messy situation.
I’ll offer an incident to relate my point.
An Airbus was flying in late night somewhere, crew forgets to activate approach phase, gets cleared a visual, is a bit high but making it work, then goes to managed speed which throws there speed to 250 instead of slowing, they’re already behind and now they really are , so click click manual thrust to idle to deactivate TL and unwanted thrust…gets back on glide path and never returns back to TLs forgetting it’s no longer in auto thrust on, speed decays and they drag the tail in and take care of some approach lights in the process. Beware of “click click” to fix a messy situation.
JustinS
Well-Known Member
It would feel so unnatural to not be in the CL detent and think auto thrust was on. Definitely a good reminder though to make sure everyone is paying attention to the proper level of automation.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
My guess is their vision had gone down to soda straw level and were focusing on being high and fast etc. it was dark so not immediately visually obvious to PM, and somehow PF didn’t notice.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I had a similar (but way less bad) thing happen just yesterday. The FO briefed that he was going to fly the approach with AP/AT off from below 4000 feet. It was VFR and we were expecting to call the field a long ways out and get assigned a visual approach. The ILS is out on this runway, and we are required to use some form of guidance if available, so we had the RNAV approach loaded. He told me to call the field from the downwind leg (below 4000 feet), and we got cleared for the visual with all the automation still on in heading mode. He spun the heading towards the airport a bit and hit managed nav. The plane went into NAV but it didn't actually draw a line to the route, which he didn't see. I have no idea where the plane would have gone because it was in NAV but there was no TO waypoint as we'd cleaned up and extended the approach a while back.
Got that sorted out with a direct to the final approach fix but in all of that discussion ("where's it going now?") we didn't arm the approach, so no FINAL AP. I saw it (so proud of myself on this one!) but gave him some rope to hang himself with if he wanted to, as the FAF is a long ways out and the danger from blowing through the final approach fix and not starting down with the automation is pretty low. He didn't catch that issue so about ten seconds after passing the fix (and the VDEV diving down below us) I mentioned that the approach wasn't armed so we weren't going to ever descend.
His response was to dump the AP, disconnect the autothrust, slam the thrust levers to idle, and aggressively push the nose over. And then have to immediately pull back and bring the power back in when we caught up with the VDEV three seconds later. My mistake for not seeing that one coming.
He got it back on path and flew a really nice approach and landing, but we had a quick chat about the urgency (or lack there of) needed to recover when things are going wrong but haven't gotten bad yet.
TL;DR sometimes panic CLICK-CLICK, CLICK-CLICKing isn't the right solution.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
We have talked about this before but this needs to be encouraged in training. Things like knowing you can go flaps 10 with speed brakes out and it is completely fine, and authorized. Slowing as needed to configure but having the full range of the speed band for flaps to slow if needed. Speeding up in a descent to increase the rate of descent to then slow and configure so you are not continually high and fast etc. This needs to start in initial training and it needs to be encouraged. If the culture was to "do that pilot ish" it would encourage more pilots to learn on the line but it needs to start in initial. Do the weird things. Do flaps 40 to keep up on it, do a two engine flaps 15 landing when you can safely. Click all the stuff off and hand fly from 10k to the ground, play with configuring in different ways to learn how the airplane slows or doesn't. I get most places we are getting slowed and vectored but I wish everyone felt empowered to play with it when given free reign.
I don’t mind ICN. Now HND is the “Salt Lake City” of international airports.
“How many times can they change our arrival, runway, and approach type in a five minute period?”
“ビールを持って、これを見てください!”
(Hold my beer, watch this!)
Those type arrivals are very common. Lots of airports have the conga line.
If you’re gonna click click. know how to fly the plane.
And make sure you fly the plane, and not let it fly you.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
This is true. Also, second only to NRT for screwed up taxiway design. And at least NRT has the excuse of having to avoid Rebel Farmers.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Agreed on most, but I’m not a fan of flaps 1 over 230 kts. Use the speed brakes to bring it back to 230 first, or get the gear down. Some guys I fly with will call flaps 1 as fast as ~247-248 knots. Not necessary. If you truly feel you need flaps 1 at 248 kts, get the gear out. Or use the speed brakes.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Call me old school, but the “energy management” is, ah, overdone.
Remember, old airframes were pretty draggy. “If you can see it, you can land on it” doesn’t really apply anymore.
You’re going to burn more on the go around if you mess up the 1st arrival, so, yea, toss out what you need to make the jet do what you want it to do.
Remember, old airframes were pretty draggy. “If you can see it, you can land on it” doesn’t really apply anymore.
You’re going to burn more on the go around if you mess up the 1st arrival, so, yea, toss out what you need to make the jet do what you want it to do.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
Meh, I am a huge fan of it. I prefer to get 1 and 5 (and 10 if needed) out over gear any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I much prefer to throw speed brakes out and get flaps out before simply dropping gear. It is perfectly acceptable per the AFM to do so and why we have culturally changed the way we fly to baby a commercial airliner that was designed to have flaps deployed at the speeds displayed, is beyond me. It is beating a dead horse but I am 100% convinced it is why the 737 had an exponentially higher ratio of unstable approaches compared to the Airbus, and they are still high as hell.
Flaps 1 and 2 max speed is 230 in the Jurassic and classic with the older wing.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Why do you guys have to constantly hate on my technique? I HAND FLY TO FL400
IN RVSM AIRSPACE!
