*x-fer switch select*
"Your controls."
*writes down employee number for do not fly list*
You're the FO...
- Thread starter Cherokee_Cruiser
- Start date
*x-fer switch select*
"Your controls."
*writes down employee number for do not fly list*
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm sure your FOM (or equivalent) contains something under FO's responsibilities similar to "assists captain with the operation of the flight as directed by the captain."
If he says it's your leg, it's your leg.
If he says it's your leg, it's your leg.
You're not speaking glowingly of the training department at VA. That is some basic first day stuff.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
You guys are talking past one another.
You're talking about leadership style, and Todd is talking about the bottom line legal authority for all actions on the flight.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Hacker15e said:
I don't think so. He's saying if he doesn't like what the guy wants him to do, he'll tell the captain to fly the leg himself.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Last edited:
Nope. I'm saying be a leader, not a boss. There is a certain amount of tact that is necessary to gain my respect. If you lack it, "Your leg." You get it from the word "go." It's yours to lose.
People listen to leaders. They accept criticism from leaders. They modify their behaviors for them. Bosses don't garner my respect. They force me to get through a trip. The "fab five" at my shop, are bosses.
And my FOM says we will alternate legs, that I am positive of. I'm not going to go digging through my FOM on my day off. But if memory serves, the PM assists the PF, not "the FO is there to make sure the captains needs are met." You make it out to be like captains are sky gods. Most are great. But there has been more than a few I've had to babysit. Our company realizes that, and has written the FOM accordingly.
Like I've stated. I fly within standard, am safe and competent. The attitude you speak of honestly scares the crap out of me. It reminds me of the poor CRM that goes on in Asia, where the Captain is always right, so even when it's all going to hell, the FO sees it is but says nothing, and people bend metal.
D
Deleted member 27505
Guest
Wait, you have predetermined power detents, and AT? And you can toss out boards with flaps deployed? ... Consider yourself lucky and stop your whining.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Your attitude of disregarding the chain of command scares me. He's in charge, whether he's "earned" your respect or not. If he says it's your leg, then you're flying.
What disregard have I shown? If he's going to be all knowing, and I'm his servant, who is the one showing the more dangerous behavior here. The guy who refuses to listen, or the guy who is being treated as a pee on, so he lets the captain fly? It's called CRM. It's essential for me to do my job properly. If you fail to use it, I see me having not a lot of options. I'm well within my rights as an employee to refuse a leg and be a PM.
D
Deleted member 27505
Guest
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
CRM is a method to assist in enabling accomplishment of the goal of flying the aircraft safely. It is not an end in and of itself.
And....
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/peon
I'm fully aware of what CRM is, and the barriers to good CRM. Refusing input/demanding something of the guy next to you is one of them.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
mshunter said:
I don't think you are. CRM is about ensuring safety. It isn't about sheltering your insubordination.
And that's exactly what I'm after. Safety. Which is why it's your leg. I'm not a micro manager. And I expect the same of the guy sitting over there in the seat next to me. But you have completely glassed over one fact. I'm flying exactly how I've been instructed to by company. If the captain has a problem with that, I'm not the one with the problem. Time for a call to pro-stands I guess.
Insubordination my ass. Follow the damn book, and neither of us will have a problem.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
If it was me you were copping such an attitude with, there wouldn't be a call to Pro Stands. The parking brake would be set, the call to scheduling would be made to remove you from the trip, and you'd be seeing the Chief Pilot. I'd caution you to be a lot more diplomatic in how you handle such disagreements with captains. I've never seen an FO come out well in representations when a captain has written them up for such things. I remember a representation for an FO who got written up by a captain because the captain wanted the clearance and the ATIS written on a napkin and left on the center console. The FO refused to do it. Granted, the captain was a bit of an •, but he is the captain. I represented the captain and the FO rep represented the FO. The FO ended up losing pay and getting a verbal warning that further insubordination would result in suspension. The captain got nothing except a reminder from me that maybe he shouldn't be such a jerk. I suspect he didn't listen. Such is his right.
Oh I was very diplomatic with the captain. But I'm quickly loosing my patience with this discussion. Being called insubordinate for flying standard is beyond ridiculous. Do you realize how that sounds. Calling someone to the carpet for following the rules set forth by the company you work for?
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Most of us on this website have had to step up and put our foot down. It happens. Usually what happens is the CA had something else going on and thanked us later.
Also, a lot of us who have been CAs before have also had FOs save our bacon, and for that we're very grateful.
And a lot of us have had FOs be a right seat CA or cop an attitude.
If the guy asks you to do something that doesn't violate SOP, EVEN IF what you're doing doesn't violate SOP just do it.
On my previous plane, I was an instructor. Online, I was just a regular FO. So if the boss said do ADC when I planned EFG, I just did it as long ad it was safe. The guy wanted me to dive down and truck along burning an extra 2 tons of gas? Fine. I'm not going to get hurt, I'm not going to get violated, I didn't sign the book. Maybe there's a reason from his previous experiences in this situation or it's not understanding what the machine wants. As my 9 year old says, "WutEvs". NMFP.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
That sounds like a d-bag CA. No offense.
On what grounds though? Writing an ATIS/Clearance on a napkin is not SOP. So where do you draw the line between following SOPs and legitimate CA requests? The CA could ask me to repeat "hip horaay" after the completion of every checklist. That's not standard, it's not SOP, and I'll politely decline from partaking in this. If he pushes it I would tell him I do not feel comfortable with it. Those are the key magic words. Do not feel comfortable.
The d-baggery you mentioned in particular is luckily usually limited to regionals where you have first time CAs and guys in their 20s who are CAs. Typically people mature more so when they are CAs in their 40s and 50s (like my major where I am now). The issues I saw at 9E do not exist here.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
If he's specifically telling you to violate a company procedure, that's one thing. If he's just telling you to use a certain technique that isn't violating company procedure, then you need to do what he says.
This ain't complicated.
Exactly!
Oh, he was.
You probably knew him, actually. Old dude, former military, DTW based, never smiles. But he's the captain, so he gets to run his ship the way he wants to run it, d-bag or not (barring legal and safety concerns, of course).Similar threads
