Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Fair enough. You're not one of "us" people, right?
I guess my point is people aren't really taught angle of attack.
You're the FO...
- Thread starter Cherokee_Cruiser
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I guess my point is people aren't really taught angle of attack.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Sadly, it isn't just the airline-trained folks that do this.
Despite scads of high-AOA and even some post-stall maneuvering training amongst USAF pointy-nosed pilots, there are still numerous instances of pulling aft when the correct response is to push forward. I can't find the video right now, but there's a great HUD video from a T-38 down at Randolph where the guy was on mile final and dove -- terrible decision -- to miss some birds. The dive was going to put him into the dirt, and instead of pulling to the best AOA (there's an AOA gauge front and center in the '38) to recover, he plants the stick aft to the seat-pan and recovers in a full accelerated stall (1.1 AOA -- the max that can be displayed -- on a system calibrated between 0 and full stall at 1.0).
Unfortunately, it is an instinctual self-preservation reaction, rather than a thought-out action to solve a problem.
I'd love to be up on a high horse and say that training and experience is the antidote to this stuff, but having been frightened in an airplane and having that fright drive me to instinctually perform an action that later (at zero knots and 1G) I realized was completely wrong, I can't do that.
Unfortunately, training and experience is all we have in aviation to fight instincts that are counterproductive. We do this with instrument flying, too, but people still get The Leans, and people still CFIT when they become spatially disoriented and can't fight the vestibular illusions.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Don't get me wrong: I recognize MY INDIVIDUAL vulnerability on this one, loud and clear.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Dude, I've spent years teaching/demonstrating post-stall maneuvering (being able to fly a jet with a fully-stalled wing to Commercial PTS standards of airspeed, altitude, and heading--thanks, jet-with-afterburner!), accelerated stalls, unusual attitude recoveries, low altitude stall recovery, etc...and I know I am vulnerable to mistakenly snatching the yoke in situations when I should push it, too.
None of us are invulnerable to this.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
I can honestly say I've never tried to recover from a stall by pulling... Doesn't mean I won't try tomorrow
I suppose I have caught myself reacting subconsciously to a developing sink by feeding in back pressure.
I suppose I have caught myself reacting subconsciously to a developing sink by feeding in back pressure.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
That's the point: it isn't the logical action to take...but it is the instinctive reaction to take.
I bet you a Benjamin Franklin that if you were surprised by a stall and were faced with a windscreen full of Earth, I know what your initial kneejerk reaction would be...and it would not be to push the yoke forward to break the AOA.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
Especially in something big and heavy and guaranteed to lose a lot of altitude in the process.
As in all things, it's not so simple as some make it sound.,
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Worse! Boss man that's OCD. I mean, crew, electronic monitoring, structured/more reasonably paced training, ect... 121 is just more standardized and I would think any weirdos would be weeded out/adjusted before they hit the line by themselves. I have a hard time believing that TWO pilots would agree on pulling back when the plane is clearly too slow. I guess it has happened, but the FO was tired and the Capt. didn't be long in any airplane under the sun. Assuming training is more strict than that these days. Maybe not?Fair enough. You're not one of "us" people, right?
I guess my point is people aren't really taught angle of attack.
It's not a jet, but the Metro required 12000+ feet to recover from a stall during testing. I and the training department are VERY hard on guys that don't pay attention to the angle of attack indicator and the Brasilia program is equally as obsessed over the fast/slow indicator on the 120.
How much oversight is there at a big regional/mainline other than the "electro-nanny"? Everyone gets a line check/grilled once a month here by me
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Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Depends on the place I guess. I'm willing to bet that hundred that no one at AMF is pulling back in the Metro if the AOA is indicating a stall. You live and die by that gauge, especially during the V1 cut. Assuming of course that they remain disciplined after training...
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Depends on the place I guess. I'm willing to bet that hundred that no one at AMF is pulling back in the Metro if the AOA is indicating a stall. You live and die by that gauge, especially during the V1 cut. Assuming of course that they remain disciplined after training...
Cool story, especially since AOA is the primary pitch/performance methodology of flying two of the aircraft I have most of my time in, the F-15E and T-38.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I've never flown an airliner with an AOA gauge.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Can't you just fix everything with the LOL levers?
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Can't you just fix everything with the LOL levers?
Welll......yeah.....we just don't talk about it. Seeekrit and stuff.
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
On newer aircraft with a flight path vector symbol it is the difference between the aircraft pitch attitude and the flight path vector symbol.
In the Air France 447 crash their pitch attitude was approximately 10 degrees nose up on the Primary Flight Display (note that is a Boeing term, not sure what Airbus calls it), while their Flight Path Vector (again a Boeing term) was at 10 degrees nose down, thus an AOA of 20 degrees.
One nice feature of the 787 is that it has a back-up for indicated airspeed of AOA speed as well as a back-up for altitude of GPS altitude. So even if all the pitot tubes and static ports get covered or their air data modules have faults one would still have a reasonable idea of their speed and altitude as long as the AOA and inertial data are valid and the GPS is working.
Typhoonpilot
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yes, but that's not really an AOA gauge. We had a PLI (pitch limit indicator) in the 717 which showed on the PFD that showed max alpha, but that's not a true AOA indicator.
typhoonpilot
Well-Known Member
You're right, it's not. I should have said it can approximate the AOA in certain situations to be more precise.
PLI is a completely different animal, but useful for terrain avoidance maneuvers and windshear escape maneuvers.
TP
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
On both the T-38C and the F-15E AOA is the primary means of determining airspeed on approach and for flying max range/endurance, while the knots-per-pounds-math airspeed computation is the backup method.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Plus, the waterline of the aircraft isn't a direct analog to aero AOA over the airfoil.
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