I'd rather have a 12 year pay rate than an 18 year rate. It takes less time to get to top out pay. Normally, the pay rates are larger between steps as well. That's the reason we moved it down to 12 years, therefore not really a concession. The company loves an 18 year pay rate. Most guys will never see it.
I'd beg to differ, the 18 year scale came because of Mesaba. The new JCBA was a lot of the old Mesaba contract, some parts word-for-word. Mesaba had lots of guys over the 12 year mark, a LOT more than Pinnacle did. You are correct about what you are saying about 12th year pay, but once you hit 12th year, you'd want more. Otherwise you get no payraise until the next contract is signed years later. Mesaba had lots of guys at this 12-th year (or higher) rung.
You said EVERY pilot. Now you're changing your tune. I'm sorry you apparently had a rough time of it, and it still sounds like you're sour graping over a) the union pulling the rug out from under your pay raise at the expense of a new contract and b) you not upgrading. There was plenty of BS under ALPA, but to say "that would happen with or without ALPA?" Dude, you must have flown for a different airline than I did. You're trying to tell me that the airline wouldn't have pushed us to the FAA duty limit (not the contractual duty limit) and scheduled min overnights, no cancelation pay, no reassignment pay, 24 hours off in 7 days (not one calendar day) and pushed the reserves to the max? The absolutely would without ALPA. They would occasionally try it WITH ALPA! Luckily, we had the CBA to say "Uh, no we won't do that." Thanks to ALPA, we could say that and the company couldn't fire us or tell us "You'll do this, or you'll find another job. Tons of Jet U guys are dying to have your job."
My experience with ALPA was "fly first, grieve later." Meaning, if you're getting a screwjob flight assigned which may not be contractually compliant, do it anyway. We'll see what we can fight back later. So in the moment, I was screwed and forced to do it anyway - which is no different than without a union. I got a call for a grievance filed about 6 months after I left 9E. Score for progress, I guess. To all this talk about without ALPA, we would be doing "no cancel pay, max 16 hr duty day, no reassignment pay, 24 off in 7 and no calendar day (which, btw, I was "forced" to accept when I was snowstorm stranded in Tulsa once. 4 day back/back 2-day, and stranded in Tulsa. Wouldn't even release me to get back home so I could have my own 1 calendar day in 7 in base)." So for all that talk, examine non-union airlines for proof. What non-union regionals do you know of? The biggest one that comes in mind is SkyWest. Do you see them suffering from all these allegations? Of course not.
As for the being fired, with the exception of the TVC Captain, most cases where the company wanted to fire someone was completely justified but the union stopped it. Another downside of a union is them protecting people who should have been fired long ago. Look how long it took Pinnacle to fire Captain (initials MC). That guy was a serious nutjob but ALPA saved him everytime, until finally one day a straw broke the camel's back.
Check your facts before you go on a tirade. 99 agreement had 50% cancelation pay. It wasn't what it should be by any means, but it was there. WIthout the agreement, it wouldn't have been.
Agreed, I know it was. I thought it was an amendment letter towards the end. Like in the section that said that 44 seaters will pay the same rate as 50 seaters. Wasn't it a side letter in the back for 50% cancellation pay too?
And here's where the irony kicks in. Why? They had guys lined up that would PAY for the job. Look in the mirror if you don't believe me. WIth Jet U, CAPT and the other tons of jobs, they wouldn't have to raise anything.
But they did offer to raise it, that's the point. ALPA turned it down. They thought the had leverage, whereas they had none. Look, people will show up to the door regardless of pay. I hate to say this, but it's true. Pilots need flight time for an entry-level job. That is why Great Lakes gets people through. Who wants to fly for 14k a year? No one does voluntarily, but it's a means to an end. An airline knows that, and so do the pilots. No one goes to Lakes to be a lifer. So Pinnacle would have gotten guys through the door, especially with the bonus programs they offered. And remember that 2007's "guaranteed interview with Delta!" (sound familiar?) There would have been no shortage of guys showing up. So 9E ALPA had no leverage, but they though they did. Silly guys, they (the negotiating team) were all recalled afterwards (disaster of TA1).
Like I said, sour graping still. So, you think airline should offer bigger bonuses and less pay per hour? 'Cause that's what it sounds like. Yes, the ALPA contract was from 1999. Yes, it had been mired in negotiations for years by the time you got here. You had a choice. You could have gone to a better paying regional. However, JetU didn't have plans with them, and actually building experience takes to long I guess.
No. I think if an regional wants to pay its pilots more, it should have been accepted. My spilled milk crying is biggest over how the union played out the bonus money. Again, I don't mind if they turned down the pay increase for 1st/2nd year guys in their misguided view that they had leverage. But I do mind when they later go and tie W2 wages for the bonus payout. That's a slap in the face.
TA#1 was handled poorly, but I don't regret voting "no," and my reasons had more to do with loopholes in the contract and Section 25 than it did with bonus distribution. You're STILL harping on not getting your raise. You think you're the only one that didn't get a raise?
No, but the LOA specifically addressed 1/2 year FOs...... not guys who upgraded in two years.
Freedom was ALPA. They merger the list with Mesa before even *I* started flying. I don't think you really wanna use Freedom in your example as they were constructed as a whipsaw in order for management to bring wages DOWN.
I was referring to original Freedom, before the merged list.
I'm also at a non-union carrier now. However, it hasn't made me re-write history. When AA, Delta, and everyone else starts hiring again, you're going to have the same retention problem we're going to have here. There's no shortage of people wanting to work at your place and mine because it's better than the regionals where they are now. Yes, make no mistake. Your pay raises (and mine) are driven by a desire to reduce attrition.
Pinnalce had an attrition problem for pilots, too. They never cared. It was all accounted for. Remember when we had about 30 guys/month leaving in 2006/7? They never increased pay and guys showed up for the wage offered. You're right, my two payraises in 1.5 years are to reduce to attrition, but the answer could also have been "no, we're not making money, sorry." They could just as easily hire people who are locals and know will stick around here. Plenty of guys at VX who live in the Bay Area or LAX and are senior, don't want to jump anywhere.
