New Hire Bonus
- Thread starter Xcaliber
- Start date
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
That's not my best side. I used to model!
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
That is what we are thinking, our 50 seat rates are inline with your new rates and Pinnacle's and Gojet's 70/90 seat rates.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
My feeling is that if the rate survived BK, it should be good enough, but apparently AMR and most of ALPA representation don't feel that way. You are about 2% above our new 7/9 rate and 5% above almost everybody else. It's a damn shame that the industry has dropped so much and left the outliers so exposed. The problem of course is that even IF you took GoJet's rate you'd still be way more expensive because their longevity is so much less than yours, or anybody other than Compass for that matter. Hell, we even ran the numbers if we took GoJet's (lack of) contract, section for section. We'd still have been almost 10% MORE expensive than them because of our demographic. It used to be that every regional had a pilot group made up of mostly less than 5 year guys and a few senior 10+ year guys who wanted to stick around for various reasons. Now all the older regionals have demographic that skew towards 10 to top of scale on the captain side and there is absolutely no way to be competitive with a new regional.
The sad fact of the matter is that IF Eagle doesn't take the cut on the 700 or establish a cheaper 900 rate, they won't get any new flying. Ever. Personally, I'd rather see that happen than another serious hit to the industry average number, but as I said during the 9E debacle, it's not my job at stake so I really don't have any right to have an opinion in this case. Hopefully Eagle guys see what happened at 9E and what it did to the rest of the industry and how it DIRECTLY is causing them to have to fight for a 700 rate that survived in bankruptcy and tell the company to pound sand. I doubt that will happen though.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
I would be surprised if as a pilot group we are willing to take anymore cuts. They already have a LOA saying we will fly 900s/175s at our current 700 rates. They are getting PBS or 9 million more a year. There isn't a whole lot left to give up other them then our rates and I for one will not go for that.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Plenty of seven year FOs at Pinnacle. They were next in line to upgrade pre-merger. Then the door got slammed in their faces. If what they were saying during the bankruptcy contract negotations process is/was to be believed, I would have been looking at downgrade about the time I was coming up on year 8. Now? Who knows.....
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Which all the more reason to say "f you Pinnahole" Unfortunately *15% of our pilot group were idiots. And I mean that in every sense of the word. You have no arqrument and you have no reason and I'm beyond embarrassed to think your vote in the pilot group counts as much as mine. Let me iterate for anyone in Pinnacle who voted yes. • you.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
SkyWest is above and beyond almost any other regional airline today. You can say what you want about "piggybacking" but SkyWest has taken care of their employees just fine, enough so that they are still non-union today. And no, it doesn't involve "just enough" to keep 51% happy. Most senior CR9 CA at 9E gets 87/hr today. SkyWest? $112/hr. How long do you think this will last now, when 9E has undercut everyone else.
And stop sucking the ALPA tit at a regional. Remember when Continental/United picket with those signs of "who's flying YOUR plane?" in regards to scope? Yeah, they are talking about you, and every other regional pilot out there. The answer is.... "ALPA due paying regional pilots!" are flying those planes. What a huge conflict of interest. ALPA at the regional level don't work, it has a conflict of interest with representing mainline. What did ALPA do for 9E? Every single 9E pilot would have been better off with no ALPA. One, you would have been forced to accept the last and final best offer of 2006, and therefore have made more for 2006-2010 than actually did under the 1999 agreement. And two, ALPA cannot stop majors from playing the RFP game. Concessions will come, pilots will vote yes. ALPA makes sense only at the legacy/major level.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Without ALPA, there wouldn't be a 1999 agreement to build off. That agreement in 2006 wasn't all that great. Sure, the pay rates were better than the 1999 agreement, but the work rules actually took a few steps BACKWARDS. At the end of the day, health care would have gone through the roof, and any pay increases you got would have been offset, if not reveresed. Management's "Last Best and Final Offer" without a union wouldn't have been much more than what we were getting originally. Without ALPA, the pay raises that were in the 2006 offer wouldn't have been close to what they were. The company would have said "Here's a few bucks as a COLA raise. Don't like it, leave."
I agree on a lot of the conflict of interest points, but to say I would have been better off without ALPA at 9E is pretty much laughable. I saw how the company operated WITH a contract. I can't fathom what they would have done WITHOUT one.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
You should know by now that it is not just about hourly pay rates. Besides... you are comparing a 12 years scale at 9E with a 20 year scale at SkyWest. Not exactly a fair comparison. Look at 12 year CA rate on the -900 at SkyWest... a whooping $4 difference. Actually, the new 9E rates are not that much less than the SkyWest rates from the bottom to the top of the current 9E payscale. Most rates are only $2 apart and the highest split occurs at year 12 with the previously mentioned $4 difference.
I highly doubt that. Same as kellwolf, there would be no 1999 agreement without ALPA. The 1999 agreement was what kept the insurance rates so low for the pilot group all those years, not a pat on the back from management. Even if management had rammed a Last Best Final Offer down our throats, the pay rates would have been at best average, but the penny pinchers over on Nonconnah would have given us rates that were substandard (i.e. Brand XYZ pilots fly the -200 for $x.xx, you should too) and jacked up the cost of our healthcare. In reality, your take home pay would have been far, far less without ALPA standing in your corner and fighting for something a little more fair than a bare bone tossed to the pilot group by management.
And can you honestly say that during your time at 9E that ALPA never had your best intrest in mind?
+ infinity
amorris311
Well-Known Member
You have officially left the reservation! What do you think life would have been like for you without ALPA? I can tell you it would not have been pretty and things would be left open to interpretation on a consistent basis. I was at Colgan and I know what working without a contract is like. You're pissed at me and all the other Colgan pilots because we had dinner with Block and made sure you would never see the left seat. Or some other variation that your mind has concocted while you have been employed at another carrier. See the forest through the trees on this one an understand that with the faults ALPA has it is still better then you trying to be a one man army.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
You DO realize that 9E had a 18 year CA rate until they voted themselves down in concessions to a 12 year cap? So my comparison still stands. A 20 year Pinnacle/Mesaba guy is now making the 12th year cap at 87/hr.
Your experience differed than mine. I was usually treated with whatever was allowed in the contract and I thought was fair given what the contract allowed. There was some BS where they sent scheduling tapes up from MEM to DTW, but hey that would happen with or without ALPA. I still think life under 9E would have been better without ALPA, your mileage obviously varies. I'm not saying go completely union-less, you could try what other regionals have (teamsters/IBT types). But something ELSE than what represents legacies.
I highly doubt that. Same as kellwolf, there would be no 1999 agreement without ALPA. The 1999 agreement was what kept the insurance rates so low for the pilot group all those years, not a pat on the back from management. Even if management had rammed a Last Best Final Offer down our throats, the pay rates would have been at best average, but the penny pinchers over on Nonconnah would have given us rates that were substandard (i.e. Brand XYZ pilots fly the -200 for $x.xx, you should too) and jacked up the cost of our healthcare. In reality, your take home pay would have been far, far less without ALPA standing in your corner and fighting for something a little more fair than a bare bone tossed to the pilot group by management.
And can you honestly say that during your time at 9E that ALPA never had your best intrest in mind?
+ infinity
You do realize the 1999 was a POS agreement that was basically jets-4-growth deal right? There were some serious industry bottom language in that agreement. No cancellation pay. No longevity date until passing sim session. The list goes on. Without ALPA, over time, 9E would have done and paid what was necessary to get bodies through. When they started struggling in 2007, bonuses were offered. In fact, I made more in training money per month than I did on ALPA's newhire rate of 20.73/hr. And a shiny 24.39/hr afterwards. Heck, if it was up to them, they were offering higher 1st and 2nd year pay because they needed guys to stick around. The union turned it down for leverage, but the economy tanked and the recession started. Oops. Then when we finally got a new contract TA#1, the same union thought they would distribute the 10 million bonus money based on W2 wages earned the years past! Gee, after willingly turning down my 1st and 2nd year salary increase, now ALPA wanted me to suck it up and tie my bonus to wages they suppressed in the first place, something that was done for the greater good. Well, if 1st and 2nd year FOs gave that up for the greater good, they should reap some benefit later, no? Apparently not. Oh well, it backfired in the union's face and the TA#1 vote failed. My theory is still that had the union said that we will get the 10 million from the company, if this TA passes, and then LATER decide what method to split the bonus, TA#1 actually would have passed. Plenty of FOs pissed off voted no solely as a way to protest the bonus distribution method because voting NO was the only way to show your displeasure.
ALPA at Pinnacle? Even the original Freedom (non-union) paid more than the 1999 9E wages that we were under until Feb 2011.
I've been at a non-union airline for 1.5 years and already have gotten two payraises in a time they could have simply said "we aren't making money, no raises for you." Not to mention, there's no shortage of people willing to work here. Sure you could say they are only doing it to keep people around, but of the people who have recently left, an overwhelming majority were UAL furloughees who would go back with the new UAL contract (they'd be silly not to). The attrition to Spirit and JetBlue is very very minimal. I've had a personal emergency and they handled it EXTREMELY well. They even sent flowers to my home, which was a caring/personal touch. I feel taken care of, and if they are there in my time of need, then I will support them and be on the same side. Now over time things may change, and at some point, a union may be necessary. But where I am right now, I feel content.
I've had it with ALPA. As I've stated, ALPA belongs at the legacy level only (AA - APA, UA, DL). There is no place for ALPA at the regional level.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
It's worth pointing out... all is not gravy at the "cheap" regionals. Here at RAH people are flying out the door like crazy, the pipeline is slowly drying up. Mass (unorganized) random call offs, scheduling issues, phones getting blown up in days off, lot of seat fill problems in the sim. The newest thing is I keep seeing is CA+CA instead of FO+CA.
I don't think we're as cheap in reality is we may appear to be on paper. As some point mainline's gotta be thinking, "lets just do this ourselves!"
I don't think we're as cheap in reality is we may appear to be on paper. As some point mainline's gotta be thinking, "lets just do this ourselves!"
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
I love hearing things likes this. I hope they cant staff RAH any longer and performance goes down the toilet.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
Are you still here?
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Bitter? Not really. It got me in, got some time, and got out. The crappy pay from the 1999 contract was around far before Jet U even came in existence (which only got guys hired Dec 2006 - Feb/March 2008). Jet U is a side issue you are dragging into this.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Not at all a side issue. It directly speaks to the character of the person doing the complaining.