New Hire Bonus

[Kingairer]

From what I've seen (in a non-airline environment), ASAP is a mess that basically gives the company something to point at and say "hey look, we're doin somethin!" rather than substantive (and expensive) changes that would be effective (autopilots in helicopters, mandated, regular, actual-IMC training for VFR programs, perhaps even multi-engine/multi-pilot mandates like they have in Cannuckistan).

That said, in a more general sense, my only real problem with Unions in our rarefied, sanctified "Profession" is that they're paper tigers under the RLA/NLRB/etc. Until you suckers stop voting for one statist clown in order to stop the other statist clown, I can't see how Unions are going to do much to improve either Safety or QOL. *shrug*. I'd love to be wrong, but like, how long has it been since anyone negotiated a vast improvement in a pilot contract?

this is not the case in the airlines I've been involved with. ASAP and foqa have been used to change procedures to make things safer. As long as there are proper union gate keepers I am a big supporter of these programs.

 

[Seggy]

Until you suckers stop voting for one statist clown in order to stop the other statist clown, I can't see how Unions are going to do much to improve either Safety or QOL. *shrug*. I'd love to be wrong, but like, how long has it been since anyone negotiated a vast improvement in a pilot contract?

Colgan/Pinnacle in 2011.

 

[TallFlyer]

Colgan/Pinnacle in 2011.

To which some would say "Look at them now."

Not saying I would say that, and I don't know all the history between now and then, but there you go. Feel free to educate.

 

[Seggy]

To which some would say "Look at them now."

Not saying I would say that, and I don't know all the history between now and then, but there you go. Feel free to educate.

The union and pilot contract did NOT make the company declare bankruptcy, mismanagement caused that. The union made huge gains that raised the bar at the time.

 

[Seggy]

To which some would say "Look at them now."

Not saying I would say that, and I don't know all the history between now and then, but there you go. Feel free to educate.

The union and pilot contract did NOT make the company declare bankruptcy, mismanagement caused that. The union made huge gains that raised the bar at the time.

 

[BobDDuck]

You may (and ONLY may) have some merit when discussing the RLA, but the NRLA (A as in ACT, the B stands for BOARD, which is the body that hears matters that deal with the ACT when unions and companies have disagreements) is a bit of a different animal, and provides for a whole lot more leeway than the RLA does in some significant ways. Ways that can't be overcome? I don't think so, but again, it's a different animal and in many ways, much better for unions.

Actually...

The National Labor Relations Board deals with issues that are covered by the National Labor Relations Act.

The National Mediation Board works with Railway Labor Act issues.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Delta.

In YR 2000. Anything recent? Or are you counting the higher-pay-for-bigger-RJ-outsource contract a good step towards progress? Regardless, it still doesn't come close to what Delta had in their pre-9/11 contract.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Delta.

In YR 2000. Anything recent? Or are you counting the higher-pay-for-bigger-RJ-outsource contract a good step towards progress? Regardless, it still doesn't come close to what Delta had in their pre-9/11 contract.

 

[rocketman5150]

The union and pilot contract did NOT make the company declare bankruptcy, mismanagement caused that. The union made huge gains that raised the bar at the time.

By raising the bar, you must mean raising pilot labor costs above market levels. This quickly snowballed when other employee groups saw this, and went to management with their hands out asking "where's ours?" Cost rose to unsustainable levels, because the amount Pinnacle was being (by, whoever, Delta I suppose) didn't change. The company had little choice but to declare bankruptcy. So yes, it's all management's fault because they gave in to the union that was holding a figurative gun to it's head.

That's my hypothesis.

 

[amorris311]

By raising the bar, you must mean raising pilot labor costs above market levels. This quickly snowballed when other employee groups saw this, and went to management with their hands out asking "where's ours?" Cost rose to unsustainable levels, because the amount Pinnacle was being (by, whoever, Delta I suppose) didn't change. The company had little choice but to declare bankruptcy. So yes, it's all management's fault because they gave in to the union that was holding a figurative gun to it's head.

That's my hypothesis.

You understand management signed the contract as well, right? They supposedly did their due diligence in costing the contract and believed the numbers would work. No one holds guns to anyone's head while in normal section 6 negotiations. If management feels they cannot sustain the new cost they do a damn good job of showing that with the lawyers and other staff members who sit at the table while in negotiations. This is true in every industry and not unique to airlines. Why do people fail to see this on a consistent basis? Both parties must agree to the contract it's not the union who walks in and says take this or else. Most times it's the other way around.

 

[Seggy]

By raising the bar, you must mean raising pilot labor costs above market levels. This quickly snowballed when other employee groups saw this, and went to management with their hands out asking "where's ours?" Cost rose to unsustainable levels, because the amount Pinnacle was being (by, whoever, Delta I suppose) didn't change. The company had little choice but to declare bankruptcy. So yes, it's all management's fault because they gave in to the union that was holding a figurative gun to it's head.

That's my hypothesis.

You so hypothesis is factually wrong. If you dig up some SEC documentation and court filings, you'll see the real reason.

 

[Seggy]

Until you suckers stop voting for one statist clown in order to stop the other statist clown, I can't see how Unions are going to do much to improve either Safety or QOL. *shrug*. I'd love to be wrong, but like, how long has it been since anyone negotiated a vast improvement in a pilot contract?

Alaska Airlines (today as a matter of fact)...

 

[Seggy]

Until you suckers stop voting for one statist clown in order to stop the other statist clown, I can't see how Unions are going to do much to improve either Safety or QOL. *shrug*. I'd love to be wrong, but like, how long has it been since anyone negotiated a vast improvement in a pilot contract?

Hawaiian Airlines (a few times in the last five years)...

 

[BE19Pilot]

Any pilot group that gains a new or amended contract that "raises the bar" at a regional airline is living in a false reality if they believe that this is going to truly work out in the long-run. It is good for the short-term, but as history has shown a "good" contract doesn't necessarily mean that things will remain "good". Until market forces drive pilot salaries, benefits, etc...I think no one should consider a regional a "career". GET OUT as soon as a better opportunity presents itself.

 

[kellwolf]

By raising the bar, you must mean raising pilot labor costs above market levels. This quickly snowballed when other employee groups saw this, and went to management with their hands out asking "where's ours?" Cost rose to unsustainable levels, because the amount Pinnacle was being (by, whoever, Delta I suppose) didn't change. The company had little choice but to declare bankruptcy. So yes, it's all management's fault because they gave in to the union that was holding a figurative gun to it's head.

That's my hypothesis.

As previously stated, your hypothesis is incorrect. Some other factors in our costs at the time involved buying another airline and integrating it along with ANOTHER airline that had been previously purchased. Management didn't think ahead very much on the integration, and the inexperienced showed. The cost savings that would have come about from the merging of the operations dragged on and on and on the longer it took them to integrate. In fact, if they had done as the pilots requested YEARS prior, they would have only had to integrated two airlines rather than three. They insisted on keeping Pinnacle and Colgan separate until their hand was forced into a three way merger. Add to that the previous CEO's larger desire to look good in the local business community outweighing financial performance, and you've got HQ being moved into a MUCH more expensive location further from the operation that we really didn't even NEED.

As for other labor groups, the ground ops people saw no increases, and the FAs had signed an agreement prior to that which wasn't ammendable yet. The pilots didn't get much more than the other pilot groups around them already had, and in the case of Mesaba, they didn't improve too much at all. It wasn't the pilot groups asking for a hand out followed by other employee groups asinking "where's ours?" it was management mis-steps and poor decisions that led to massive financial issues. Pinnacle had a track record of this even before buying Mesaba. At one point, they tried to play a stock market game to make a quick buck right before the economy tanked. That came back and bit management for a multi-million dollar loss.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Until market forces drive pilot salaries, benefits, etc...I think no one should consider a regional a "career". GET OUT as soon as a better opportunity presents itself.

Okay, let's consider Brand X airline, which is new, is doubling its fleet size every year, has an 18 month upgrade, and the following pay scale

Year CA FO
10 $150 $75
9 $140 $60
8 $130 $49
7 $110 $38
6 $100 $27
5 $90 $26
4 $70 $25
3 $55 $22
2 $40 $20
1 $25 $10
Assuming everything else about is comparable to everywhere else, would you take the job, and why? What effect does that pay scale competitively?

 

[amorris311]

As previously stated, your hypothesis is incorrect. Some other factors in our costs at the time involved buying another airline and integrating it along with ANOTHER airline that had been previously purchased. Management didn't think ahead very much on the integration, and the inexperienced showed. The cost savings that would have come about from the merging of the operations dragged on and on and on the longer it took them to integrate. In fact, if they had done as the pilots requested YEARS prior, they would have only had to integrated two airlines rather than three. They insisted on keeping Pinnacle and Colgan separate until their hand was forced into a three way merger. Add to that the previous CEO's larger desire to look good in the local business community outweighing financial performance, and you've got HQ being moved into a MUCH more expensive location further from the operation that we really didn't even NEED.

As for other labor groups, the ground ops people saw no increases, and the FAs had signed an agreement prior to that which wasn't ammendable yet. The pilots didn't get much more than the other pilot groups around them already had, and in the case of Mesaba, they didn't improve too much at all. It wasn't the pilot groups asking for a hand out followed by other employee groups asinking "where's ours?" it was management mis-steps and poor decisions that led to massive financial issues. Pinnacle had a track record of this even before buying Mesaba. At one point, they tried to play a stock market game to make a quick buck right before the economy tanked. That came back and bit management for a multi-million dollar loss.

You are right about everything except the cost of the new HQ. They got that place for pennies on the dollar. The city and state gave them huge rebates just to move downtown. Taxes and expenses were minimal due to the Memphis downtown revival project or something of that sort. Everything else though was spot on!

 

[L-16B]

Go

You are right about everything except the cost of the new HQ. They got that place for pennies on the dollar. The city and state gave them huge rebates just to move downtown. Taxes and expenses were minimal due to the Memphis downtown revival project or something of that sort. Everything else though was spot on!

Go fly a plane or something

 

[Seggy]

Go
Go fly a plane or something

Go volunteer at a liberal nonprofit.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

By raising the bar, you must mean raising pilot labor costs above market levels. This quickly snowballed when other employee groups saw this, and went to management with their hands out asking "where's ours?" Cost rose to unsustainable levels, because the amount Pinnacle was being (by, whoever, Delta I suppose) didn't change. The company had little choice but to declare bankruptcy. So yes, it's all management's fault because they gave in to the union that was holding a figurative gun to it's head.

That's my hypothesis.

Don't know where to begin - except that by posting this you clearly have no industry knowledge and more to the point, no inside knowledge of Pinnacle Corp or our negotiations with them.

Although I'm surprised no one had mentioned the "pilot rate reset" that was part of Pinnacle's NWA (and subsequently Delta) Air Service(s?) Agreement. The pilot rate reset that went unpaid by Delta. The reset that didn't happen such that even when we improved our ASA with United for the Q operation, we couldn't sustain the company.

How about the gun to the head of the company from ALPA that demanded this unsustainable contract yet "demandingly" agreed to an implementation schedule of approximately 6 months for "programming changes", yet forces us to live with a bankruptcy agreement in its entirety from day 1 (to help the company), while missing the deadline on the one "give" the company agreed to by a mile (reserve transparancy).

Don't forget, this unsustainable contract wasn't even a raise for 1/3 of the represented pre-merger groups. Don't forget, this wasn't a contract that took years to negotiate with punches thrown by both sides.

No, you are right, it's completely the pilot groups' fault for asking for just compensation.

I mean - really????? Phil, is that you? Loading empty bags for your Thanksgiving photo op again???