New Hire Bonus

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BobDDuck said:
I wasn't aware we were even discussing the current system, which as you point out is far from perfect. That said, even if you think this is a simple "what if" scenario, we can use a lot of the hard evidence floating around out there to pretty easily show that a system without a union body pushing for safety regulations would be inherently less safe than one that has such a body.

How exactly do you propose that pilot's, with out union voice, lobby for safety? I assume that even if you haven't worked in the aviation industry, you've spent some time in big business? If so you know that EVERYTHING comes down to cost and in passenger transport, the costs is either in dollars and cents or bad publicity (which translates to dollars and cents). There are actuary tables floating around that show that it is cheaper for an airline to plant one into the side of a mountain every 7 years than to equip all their planes with EGPWS. There is plenty of data that shows it's cheaper to have a serious runway incursion event every three months than to put smart ground guidance systems in planes and to update the holdshort lighting bars at all airports. The ONLY thing that's changes the equation is the public's increased interest and knowledge about aviation safety. And that, especially more so in the past in the days before the rapid data flow allowed by the interwebs, was caused by airline unions running safety publicity campaigns and lobby the hell out of congress to get safety changes made.
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Most (if not all) corporate departments are non-union, and many of them have excellent safety records and programs.

was caused by airline unions running safety publicity campaigns and lobby the hell out of congress to get safety changes made
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The last several "safety campaigns" by unions have been nothing but ploys to get something their way in negotiations (hard ball tactics). Eg, the USAPA "Safety First" campaign that back fired.
 
You want to see what an industry looks like with no unions? Check out India. They have an AWESOME safety record, right?
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Evidence please. What crashes/incidents are you talking about? For every crash/incident in India I will most likely find you one here in the USA for the same reasons.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Most (if not all) corporate departments are non-union, and many of them have excellent safety records and programs.
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Of course. The multi-millionaire riding in the back cares about his own personal safety. Phildo didn't care about the safety of passengers, however. Remember, he had a Citation that he flew around in. Steenland had a Netjets account. Etc.

The last several "safety campaigns" by unions have been nothing but ploys to get something their way in negotiations (hard ball tactics). Eg, the USAPA "Safety First" campaign that back fired.
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Please don't call USAPA a union.
 
Seggy said:
It is not a 'maybe, maybe not' answer. Take a look at how the FOQA and ASAP programs are written. The success of these programs depends heavily on union involvement.



You are assuming a lot here without any facts. I would suggest jtrain609 is right though.
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And you're assuming that these things would not have happened if it weren't for unions. Do you really think that some kind of pilot professional organization would not have come along. Just about every profession out there has some kind organization that represents its professional interests. Why do you think pilots would be any different?
 
Seggy said:
Well, for one, the safety record would be a lot worse. You do understand a lot of the safety improvements came from ALPA, do you? ALPA is the largest non-goverment safety agency in the world today as a matter of fact.

http://www.alpa.org/AboutALPA/OurHistory/tabid/2235/Default.aspx
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You're presenting opinion as fact. You don't KNOW would what happen in a non-unionized environment any more than I do. I could just as easily speculate that the airlines would be making a lot more profits, and therefore would have money to spend in safety and operational improvements. Who's to say?

But one thing we do know is that anywhere you find a troubled industry, you find a union. Take what you want from that.
 
Seggy, why are you wasting time on someone who has repeatedly dodged questions as to whether he is even in this industry? For all we know, this guy is a paralegal for Ford & Harrison.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
What does that have to do with this thread? Now you're the one trolling.
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I'm pointing out that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. He has zero experience in constitutional law, yet can opine on the 2nd amendment (I think that's fine) but someone can't have an opinion here unless they're in the "industry"?
 
From what I've seen (in a non-airline environment), ASAP is a mess that basically gives the company something to point at and say "hey look, we're doin somethin!" rather than substantive (and expensive) changes that would be effective (autopilots in helicopters, mandated, regular, actual-IMC training for VFR programs, perhaps even multi-engine/multi-pilot mandates like they have in Cannuckistan).

That said, in a more general sense, my only real problem with Unions in our rarefied, sanctified "Profession" is that they're paper tigers under the RLA/NLRB/etc. Until you suckers stop voting for one statist clown in order to stop the other statist clown, I can't see how Unions are going to do much to improve either Safety or QOL. *shrug*. I'd love to be wrong, but like, how long has it been since anyone negotiated a vast improvement in a pilot contract?
 
USAPA is a union, in that it represents US Airways as a collective group after the East kicked out ALPA. I know that hurts you ATN_Pilot, but facts are facts, and USAPA was the replacement for ALPA even if you don't like it. So, I will call the collective bargaining group for US Airways as USAPA. After the AA merger is done, it will probably be APA that survives but in the meantime it is USAPA.
 
Boris Badenov said:
blah blah blah, complain complain complain
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That said, in a more general sense, my only real problem with Unions in our rarefied, sanctified "Profession" is that they're paper tigers under the RLA/NLRB/etc.
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You may (and ONLY may) have some merit when discussing the RLA, but the NRLA (A as in ACT, the B stands for BOARD, which is the body that hears matters that deal with the ACT when unions and companies have disagreements) is a bit of a different animal, and provides for a whole lot more leeway than the RLA does in some significant ways. Ways that can't be overcome? I don't think so, but again, it's a different animal and in many ways, much better for unions.

Until you suckers stop voting for one statist clown in order to stop the other statist clown, I can't see how Unions are going to do much to improve either Safety or QOL. *shrug*. I'd love to be wrong, but like, how long has it been since anyone negotiated a vast improvement in a pilot contract?
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Delta.
 
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