amorris311
Well-Known Member
He'd lose his medical.
New Hire Bonus
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Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I'm not nearly as well informed as you airline guys about your contracts, obviously, but do you think the contracts Seggy referenced were "vast" improvements? AFAICT they were enough to keep the crews just this side of mutinous till some other carrier with a younger, lower-paid workforce got awarded the flying they had been doing. Rinse, wash, repeat.
As regards ASAP, I'm sure it has some useful effects, but at least where I work, it's 100% obvious that the things that would really improve safety are not being done because they're expensive. And Teh Gummint could mandate them tomorrow, but, curiously, doesn't...just why do you imagine that might be?
As regards ASAP, I'm sure it has some useful effects, but at least where I work, it's 100% obvious that the things that would really improve safety are not being done because they're expensive. And Teh Gummint could mandate them tomorrow, but, curiously, doesn't...just why do you imagine that might be?
amorris311
Well-Known Member
At the regional level I think they were improvements. If you really dig deep you will see the "cheap" contracts last only so long before that company starts losing money because they cannot staff airplanes, or they cannot fix airplanes, etc. When it comes to the major contracts it has more to do with the pendulum swinging the other way after 10+ years of bankruptcies, mergers, downsizing, code shares, fuel prices, economy, etc. As with everything this complex time will be the best judge and if a majority of people benefit from these changes then I think it is a good step in the right direction. We will never see contracts like we did in the 60's due to the fact that ticket prices do not reflect the true cost of operating an aircraft. These of course are my opinions I could be way wrong.
Of course safety costs a lot of money. The ASAP and FOQA programs have done a lot in the name of aviation safety at least in the 121 world. I am not familiar with 135 or 91 for that matter so I cannot speak with any real authority.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Things such as...?
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
From what I can see, not being a whirlygig maniac myself, every HEMS rotorcraft ought to have a basic autopilot for inadvertant IMC, at the very least. And HEMS pilots ought to have regular, actual-IMC training, whether they're an IFR program or not. The nature of the business is such that they find themselves pushing VFR way more often than anyone with wings that stay where they're supposed to (not that they do it intentionally at all, quite the opposite). So now you've got all these guys who fly an extremely unstable machine and who, if they've ever been in a cloud, it was years and years ago. Poof, now they're in a cloud and by the nature of the machine they're relatively close to the ground...
At Omniflight indoc they showed us a computer animation of a guy in a DeathStar who flew in to a cloud and lost control. Unbelievably sobering stuff, and they lived!
Just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.
Nark
Macho Superpilot
Sadly this is what sells the program...
Well, you have to encourage guys to use the system.
If you willfully disregarded procedure, you're toast. ASAP can't save you not can ALPA but the information is "firewalled" so the info can't be used in an employment action, which is good because the findings of the ASAP board will help the next guy out.
Lets say we have a procedure, and we do, which creates situations where you're absolutely overloaded in a high workload environment and you fill out an ASRS form, it's only going to help on an "academic" level because it won't be forwarded to the company.
If you write a COR, there's no system to create much action out of the issue because if you bruise some office pilots ego that was responsible for the procedure, it gets political and the company will protect itself and the office pilot first and will do what's best for itself , up to an including "uhh we never got that".
With ASAP, there's a system. Someone on "all three sides" can have a look at the issue and will come up with any possible action that needs to occur to correct the issue.
I heard a story about an airline (not mine) that was cranking a lot of new people through long range navigation school, quickly, cheaply, with the impression that the experienced line pilots would "fill in the blanks" on the line. Lots of gross navigation errors, some really dumb stuff got done over the ocean, diversions and a generally lack of safety.
If you file a report, the answer is going to be "Welp, that costs money"
If you file a NASA form,no change gets made beyond an academic discussion, maybe, thousands of miles away by people who have no power to change.
ASAP, boom. The company sees the reports piling up, ALPA sees them, also the POI (FAA rep) says "Whoah. Fix this now. You two decide on how you're gojng to do it and get it on my desk Monday morning 8am sharp"
Without protection, people will say "Het, I see bad stuff happening, I'm not sticking my neck out! Skrooooo dat!"
If you willfully disregarded procedure, you're toast. ASAP can't save you not can ALPA but the information is "firewalled" so the info can't be used in an employment action, which is good because the findings of the ASAP board will help the next guy out.
Lets say we have a procedure, and we do, which creates situations where you're absolutely overloaded in a high workload environment and you fill out an ASRS form, it's only going to help on an "academic" level because it won't be forwarded to the company.
If you write a COR, there's no system to create much action out of the issue because if you bruise some office pilots ego that was responsible for the procedure, it gets political and the company will protect itself and the office pilot first and will do what's best for itself , up to an including "uhh we never got that".
With ASAP, there's a system. Someone on "all three sides" can have a look at the issue and will come up with any possible action that needs to occur to correct the issue.
I heard a story about an airline (not mine) that was cranking a lot of new people through long range navigation school, quickly, cheaply, with the impression that the experienced line pilots would "fill in the blanks" on the line. Lots of gross navigation errors, some really dumb stuff got done over the ocean, diversions and a generally lack of safety.
If you file a report, the answer is going to be "Welp, that costs money"
If you file a NASA form,no change gets made beyond an academic discussion, maybe, thousands of miles away by people who have no power to change.
ASAP, boom. The company sees the reports piling up, ALPA sees them, also the POI (FAA rep) says "Whoah. Fix this now. You two decide on how you're gojng to do it and get it on my desk Monday morning 8am sharp"
Without protection, people will say "Het, I see bad stuff happening, I'm not sticking my neck out! Skrooooo dat!"
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
How many of those things would Teh Gummint mandate in the future (despite their costs) if the HEMS pilots had a union that was effectively lobbying in Washington using data derived from ASAP and FOQA?
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Welp. We've got a Union. And I'm a fan...pay has improved significantly from the "bad old days" (which is to say that if you're civilian you can eat and own a house and a car...if you did your 20 in the military, you can have a NICE house and a NICE car). But as far as safety goes? More paperwork, more "programs" (and more managers getting paid god knows how much to adminster them)...but no autopilots for the rotor guys and only more single-engine fixed-wings for us redheaded step-children...
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I filled out an ASAP form yesterday, in fact. One of the BIGGEST advantages to the program is other guys "learn from my fail." I screwed up, it wasn't a big deal BUT letting other people know "Hey, this is kinda tricky, so watch out" so someone else doesn't get burned is a big plus. I know I read the ASAP and FOQA newsletters sent out every month. If someone else has already been through something and lets me know about it ahead of time, I'm less likely to get MY goose cooked on it. With FOQA, they can monitor trends like unstabilized approaches at particular airports. We ALL know now to get configured early going into HPN or MCO because of how ATC vectors you around and what clearances they give you. It's in our breifing guides, so we know about it before we get there. Things like that ABSOLUTELY improve safety.....and the likelihood of reaching retirement age still employed.
Another cool thing is that my employer will look at trends in deviations or abnormals and bake it right into CQ training.
Without that data, those 'dice' keep rolling and someone's going to roll craps.
I've filled a bunch of those things out, but none of them were specifically a "mea culpa".
Without that data, those 'dice' keep rolling and someone's going to roll craps.
I've filled a bunch of those things out, but none of them were specifically a "mea culpa".
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Our old DO, then Pres of flight ops, used to come in to class in the summer and complain Mesaba wasn't getting enough ASAP submissions.
Went something like, "Jeesh guys, are you just not making any mistakes anymore in the summer? Or are you simply running home to the lake and forgetting about work as soon as the brake is set? I know it's extra work but the ASAP's really help us and help our training department. Please do them."
Ahh, JR, I will miss him.
Anyway, love the thread guys, how did this go 14 days with me missing it? Gosh!
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Vs the Pinnacle way - we are going to have to look into these new CAs (before integration), some have 6 ASAPs. That is unacceptable. They will probably have to get called in.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Yeah one thing I've realized about flying on the "Unfenced side", you guys basically have PTSD and can't trust anyone outside your base manager. Every day guys are looking for the next screw job to come at them. It's bizarre. I don't know why you guys flew for these clowns for so long, must be because you have a lot more endurance than I have.
Anyway, the punishment mentality is still big over here, and from what I've seen for no good reason anymore. Looks like it'll take years to get deprogrammed, and by then we'll all be furloughed or off to another airline. It's a shame, nice bunch of guys for the most part... some of them are trying to launch rockets instead of fly airplanes, but they are doing what they were taught.
QUICK!! it's been more than 2 seconds of silence in the cockpit, there must be a callout we missed or some stupid extra thing I should be doing to "keep ahead of the airplane".
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Actually, I didn't trust my base manager, either. Most of the time the base manager wasn't on the pilots' side with a VERY few notable exceptions. They kept changing who handed out discipline. One week is was the base manager, next week it might be the CP, then it would switch back. By the time I was over the Stockholm Syndrome from just getting an airline job, it wasn't worth it to start over at another airline anyway.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Heck... there was a time when the Inflight base manager was the disciplinarian!
I never could keep track of whose carpet to dance on.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Hilarious. Walking on carpets or being used as one guys? Well whatever, the dirtbags are nearly gone or have changed their attitude, one rude c word from accounting got back to me the same day i emailed about a mistake on my check and apologized she wouldnt be able to get the money to me until my next paycheck. I didnt have to explain how addition worked, and i didnt have to listen to any crap. it was like the dragon on the other end of the email chains found reason and became helpful suddenly.
BE19Pilot
Flying a Box
Pinnacle Air Corp had a good strategic business plan if you looked at it in January 2007, at least I thought so. However, I also didn't how undercapitalized the company was and the revenue wouldn't support either operations or servicing our debt. Bottom-line; the company was a "train-wreck" and it took a lot of us along for a ride to nowhere.