Cockpit View of Idaho Plane Crash

RICHARD5 said:
Well, this power pilot loves verticle winds. Coming out of HII Lake Havasu I caught the edge of rising air. I sharply circled to gain 4,500 in minutes! Free power! When flying tourists in Lake Powell I would alternately hug the canyon walls according to wind direction or speed. I tried relating that to the other pilots but mostly I got puzzled looks or like I was trying to pull something over on them. Sad stuff bro.
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I'm enjoying gifs now thanks to this thread.
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1st off, I hope the pilot recovered, seems like they were far from rescue. 2nd, I find it amazing they all "walked away" after seeing the wreckage. They seemed to never get more than 500'.
I'm a low hour guy and glad I watched this, it clearly defines density altitude. Come on, a take off roll of 1.5 miles and no fat chicks on board?
Dumb question, would 10 degrees of flaps helped if he had it in there?
 
RICHARD5 said:
Well, this power pilot loves verticle winds. Coming out of HII Lake Havasu I caught the edge of rising air.
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I used to fly out of the old Lake Havasu airport on the penninsula.

Still remember Havasu Airlines flying out of there, to Vegas, Blythe, Bullhead City, and Parker.
 
Wow. Found more info online using the N-#

Left Seat Pilot (the old guy hurt pretty bad) retired from Idaho Air National Guard in 1995...

http://kathrynaviationnews.com/?p=64421

The link also posts that this same ol' fella (Groop) had an accident in 2010 posted below... Not a good look. They are all lucky to be alive tho. How does the saying go? Any landing you walk away from is a good landing.


Previous accident on April 10, 2010:
NTSB Identification: WPR10CA201
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, April 10, 2010 in Galena, ID
Probable Cause Approval Date: 08/12/2010
Aircraft: CESSNA 150D, registration: N4296U
Injuries: 1 Minor,1 Uninjured.
The pilot reported that he intended to fly his airplane on a cross-country flight over high mountainous terrain. After takeoff, the pilot climbed to 9,500 feet mean sea level (msl) in order to fly over mountains. He subsequently descended to 8,500 feet msl, and then he attempted to climb back to 9,500 feet to clear additional mountains. This second climbing effort diminished his fuel reserve, so the pilot opted to divert to a 7,160-foot msl uncontrolled airport short of his destination. While flying over the airport to evaluate its runway’s condition, the pilot noted that the runway was covered with snow. The pilot opined that because of the airplane’s low fuel state, it was prudent for him to land. The pilot made a soft-field landing on the runway. During rollout, the airplane’s wheels penetrated the snow-covered surface, the airplane nosed over, and both wings and the empennage broke.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The pilot’s encounter with soft, snow-covered terrain while executing a precautionary landing.
Plane crash-lands at Smiley Creek
Pilot and passenger walk away from incident -April 10, 2010:
A pilot and passenger escaped injury after their single-engine plane flipped upon making an emergency landing at the snow-covered Smiley Creek airstrip on Saturday.
The Cessna 150D, piloted by 67-year-old Leslie Gropp, connected with the snowy runway and immediately flipped over on its top, reported Blaine County Sheriff’s Lt. Jay Davis. The accident occurred about 12:23 p.m.
The airstrip is located in the upper Sawtooth Valley and is surrounded by the Sawtooth, White Cloud and Smoky mountains.
Davis said Gropp decided to attempt the emergency landing in the silver aircraft because he was low on fuel. He had apparently intended to fly south over Galena Summit—the rugged watershed divide separating the upper Salmon and Big Wood river drainages—and then land on an unnamed airstrip farther south.
“The snow made him do a nose-over,” Davis said.
He said both Gropp and his passenger, 39-year-old Boise resident Mark Humtwork, were able to exit the damaged aircraft and walk to a nearby phone at the Smiley Creek Lodge to call the Blaine County Sheriff’s
Office. Neither sustained injuries from the crash, he reported.
In the summer, the dirt-covered Smiley Creek airstrip within the Sawtooth National Recreation Area is a popular landing spot for pilots in small aircraft accustomed to flying in the remote mountains of central Idaho.
 
Scorpio11982 said:
Wow. Found more info online using the N-#

Left Seat Pilot (the old guy hurt pretty bad) retired from Idaho Air National Guard in 1995...

http://kathrynaviationnews.com/?p=64421

The link also posts that this same ol' fella (Groop) had an accident in 2010 posted below... Not a good look. They are all lucky to be alive tho. How does the saying go? Any landing you walk away from is a good landing.


Previous accident on April 10, 2010:
NTSB Identification: WPR10CA201
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, April 10, 2010 in Galena, ID
Probable Cause Approval Date: 08/12/2010
Aircraft: CESSNA 150D, registration: N4296U
Injuries: 1 Minor,1 Uninjured.
The pilot reported that he intended to fly his airplane on a cross-country flight over high mountainous terrain. After takeoff, the pilot climbed to 9,500 feet mean sea level (msl) in order to fly over mountains. He subsequently descended to 8,500 feet msl, and then he attempted to climb back to 9,500 feet to clear additional mountains. This second climbing effort diminished his fuel reserve, so the pilot opted to divert to a 7,160-foot msl uncontrolled airport short of his destination. While flying over the airport to evaluate its runway’s condition, the pilot noted that the runway was covered with snow. The pilot opined that because of the airplane’s low fuel state, it was prudent for him to land. The pilot made a soft-field landing on the runway. During rollout, the airplane’s wheels penetrated the snow-covered surface, the airplane nosed over, and both wings and the empennage broke.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The pilot’s encounter with soft, snow-covered terrain while executing a precautionary landing.
Plane crash-lands at Smiley Creek
Pilot and passenger walk away from incident -April 10, 2010:
A pilot and passenger escaped injury after their single-engine plane flipped upon making an emergency landing at the snow-covered Smiley Creek airstrip on Saturday.
The Cessna 150D, piloted by 67-year-old Leslie Gropp, connected with the snowy runway and immediately flipped over on its top, reported Blaine County Sheriff’s Lt. Jay Davis. The accident occurred about 12:23 p.m.
The airstrip is located in the upper Sawtooth Valley and is surrounded by the Sawtooth, White Cloud and Smoky mountains.
Davis said Gropp decided to attempt the emergency landing in the silver aircraft because he was low on fuel. He had apparently intended to fly south over Galena Summit—the rugged watershed divide separating the upper Salmon and Big Wood river drainages—and then land on an unnamed airstrip farther south.
“The snow made him do a nose-over,” Davis said.
He said both Gropp and his passenger, 39-year-old Boise resident Mark Humtwork, were able to exit the damaged aircraft and walk to a nearby phone at the Smiley Creek Lodge to call the Blaine County Sheriff’s
Office. Neither sustained injuries from the crash, he reported.
In the summer, the dirt-covered Smiley Creek airstrip within the Sawtooth National Recreation Area is a popular landing spot for pilots in small aircraft accustomed to flying in the remote mountains of central Idaho.
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"I don't understand what the problem is."

07-28-jack-roush_full_600.gif
 
I feel like throwing up after watching that....

Bruce Meadows Airport (U63):
Skyvector Utah Sectional
Airnav

Airport Elevation: 6370 ft
Runway 5/23: Dirt/Turf - 5000 ft x 110 ft (20 ft wide dirt strip down the middle)

The Stinson 108-3 has a Franklin 6A4 engine capable of producing 165 hp, gross weight 2400 lbs (1100 lb useful load) with 4 people and/or 50 gal of fuel. I don't know much about Franklin engines, but I know that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a 60 year old airplane is NOT going to produce the same performance numbers that are in the book, and you have to give yourself a generous safety factor. 165 hp is not a lot of power to haul four people plus gas even at sea level. Without leaning the mixture, at over a MILE HIGH elevation, it's game over.

But what really pisses me off is watching that mile of runway pass by underneath him, and then watching that second mile of perfectly good grassy meadow pass by, all before they slam into the treetops. There were agonizing minutes of time where any rational competent pilot would realize "something isn't right, the airplane isn't performing the same way it normally does. I'm going to crash if I don't fix this." So fix it! Put it back on the runway (hell the airplane did it for him!) or land straight ahead in the field!

Good god man this could have been so preventable! :bang:
 
It's funny how people look at you like you're going to your death when you load a 172 up with four people. Used to do it every now and then here (sea level). With 160hp and shaving about 7 gallons of fuel could get under gross.
 
Murdoughnut said:
It's funny how people look at you like you're going to your death when you load a 172 up with four people. Used to do it every now and then here (sea level). With 160hp and shaving about 7 gallons of fuel could get under gross.
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I've crossed the Colorado rockies(Denver area direct Central UT) in a 150hp C172 at max gross multiple times different months. You can do it, and the airplane is capable. It'll even go up to 15k if you want.
 
Murdoughnut said:
It's funny how people look at you like you're going to your death when you load a 172 up with four people. Used to do it every now and then here (sea level). With 160hp and shaving about 7 gallons of fuel could get under gross.
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My point exactly. You're not going to your death so long as you subtract the correct amount of fuel (which is impractical for renters because the tanks are often already full)... but this is necessary even at sea level. Imagine trying to do that at 6300 ft on a hot summer afternoon in Idaho. And people forget that even with the engine leaned out appropriately with a full power run-up, you likely aren't going to get the full power output of the engine due to the lower air density. The air molecules are farther apart and there's less of them in the cylinders to support combustion. To neglect the leaning process entirely is just insane.
 
I fly twin turboprops out of Boise, and flying into and out of high altitude airports in the summer is pretty sporty sometimes even in turbines. My butt has chewed up many a seat cushion even though the performance charts said I'd be good. Tomorrow for example I'll be loading up a Cheyenne 3 with 9 pax and going to an airport at 5000' MSL with 4600' of runway and it's forecast to be 95 degrees at the time of my return trip. The book says I'll leave about 500' of pavement behind unused. Gotta use the charts to be safe.
On a side note I've flown in the plane in the video. It's previous owner kept it at the crop dusting strip I worked at in high school and we'd take it out for a spin occasionally.
Anyway, use your noodle folks before you load up a plane and give a high and hot takeoff a whirl.
 
z987k said:
I've crossed the Colorado rockies(Denver area direct Central UT) in a 150hp C172 at max gross multiple times different months. You can do it, and the airplane is capable. It'll even go up to 15k if you want.
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Random question, what did your routing look like during these flights.
 
Been there, done that, out of Bruce Meadows. Got a little nervous once out of there in a 182. Took off about 3000' down the runway but it wasn't happy to leave ground effect. Finally found some ridge lift off a hill to the north. Once I got above 1000' AGL it started climbing as good as a 182 can on a summer day. There's lower terrain to the north, he just never made the turn to head that way. There's plenty of room to circle in that valley all day long once you get to tree top height. Mixture rich definitely kicked his ass on that one. At that altitude it would make a HUGE difference.

How's it going Ryan?
 
MikeD said:
I used to fly out of the old Lake Havasu airport on the penninsula.

Still remember Havasu Airlines flying out of there, to Vegas, Blythe, Bullhead City, and Parker.
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Didja ever see the Connies at Havasu? As part of his real estate business McCollough used three Constellations to fly in persons interested in buying lots in his new city.

BTW: the last vestiges of that airfield were rendered invisible in 2008. That was when the site was graded for new homes. The old terminal was torn down later that year and so ended every trace of that field. I do have LA sectional charts from 1964 which clearly show the A-N routes and Site Six.
 
One thing that went "right" was that he didn't try to pitch up to out climb the trees and stall - if he had.....well, the outcome ptobably wouldn't have been as good as it was..

Just a minor observation.

Bp244
 
inigo88 said:
My point exactly. You're not going to your death so long as you subtract the correct amount of fuel (which is impractical for renters because the tanks are often already full)... but this is necessary even at sea level. Imagine trying to do that at 6300 ft on a hot summer afternoon in Idaho. And people forget that even with the engine leaned out appropriately with a full power run-up, you likely aren't going to get the full power output of the engine due to the lower air density. The air molecules are farther apart and there's less of them in the cylinders to support combustion. To neglect the leaning process entirely is just insane.
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I just do not understand how pilots "forget" to lean. The only thing I can think of is those pilots are not familiar with high DA yet I have also witnessed pilots experienced in high alt ops do the same. Leaning is as basic as anything. Forgetting to lean is like forgetting to get dressed. I just don't get it.

BTW: in your earlier comment you said a 60 yr old plane will NOT make book performance. Well, I will say with proper care and feeding such an aircraft WILL make book. My 1945 Stinson did. So did my '62 PA--28-160. Every time...very reliable to the number.

As a renter I have had the plane defueled. Takes time but when booking the plane I make the notation that I will fuel or they defuel according to my mission. No one likes it but they have to give a little to keep renters.
 
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