Cockpit View of Idaho Plane Crash

[z987k]

Why you mad, bro? We're just talking.

What does a sky have to do with a downdraft? I don't even understand the question. But, tell me where the NTSB says that the passenger is a non-rated person. It said "passenger", nothing more, nothing less. Air coming over a ridge on the leeward side are known as mountain waves, not downdrafts. You're a CFI?

From the CSEL Written: A downdraft is a sign that a thunderstorm is in what stage?
A. Dissipating
B. Mature
C. Developing

If you're not taking a position with the downdraft being a contributing factor, why would you get your knickers in knots about it?

Do you think that mountain wave does not cause downdraft? Further, you don't need a developed wave to get downdraft on the lee side. You can get downdraft on the windward side to. Downdraft is simply sinking air. It does not have to be related to a thunderstorm. Go fly in the mountains before you start quoting books. All they teach you in ground school about mountain flying in most places is enough the be an idiot on the topic.

 

[z987k]

I think he crashed because it was 41*C, and his performance charts only go to 40*C. Rookie mistake.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Not me though, cause I'm a test pilot!

 

[scooter2525]

Dumbass.

what you meant to say was asshat. Get with the JC program!

 

[Tommay85]

Why you mad, bro? We're just talking.

What does a sky have to do with a downdraft? I don't even understand the question. But, tell me where the NTSB says that the passenger is a non-rated person. It said "passenger", nothing more, nothing less. Air coming over a ridge on the leeward side are known as mountain waves, not downdrafts. You're a CFI?

From the CSEL Written: A downdraft is a sign that a thunderstorm is in what stage?
A. Dissipating
B. Mature
C. Developing

If you're not taking a position with the downdraft being a contributing factor, why would you get your knickers in knots about it?

You don't need convection for a downdraft to occur. Where air is rising, there is also air moving down.

Mountain wave or not, it's still downward/upward moving air. You can argue the semantics of the word downdraft and updraft if you want I suppose and you'd probably be correct by the absolute book definition. Cessnaflyer is possibly just using the word interchangeably. I'm not going to look it up. I don't care. If I'm stuck in a descent, I'm in a downdraft. We know what he means.

 

[GX]

Do you think that mountain wave does not cause downdraft? Further, you don't need a developed wave to get downdraft on the lee side. You can get downdraft on the windward side to. Downdraft is simply sinking air. It does not have to be related to a thunderstorm. Go fly in the mountains before you start quoting books. All they teach you in ground school about mountain flying in most places is enough the be an idiot on the topic.

Go fly in mountains. Wow, aren't you clever. Clearly you failed geography.

All they teach you in ground school.... Really?

Please..... Tell me more about my flying experience, ground schools, and additional training.

 

[🦈💜]

Why you mad, bro? We're just talking. Winds coming over a ridge on the leeward side of a mountain are known as mountain waves, not downdrafts. You're a CFI?

... O.O;

Wait, what? Are you kidding me? "Mountain waves"?

Now I'm mad, bro! ;> No, but seriously ...

From the CSEL Written: A downdraft is a sign that a thunderstorm is in what stage?
A. Dissipating
B. Mature
C. Developing

If you're not taking a position with the downdraft being a contributing factor, why would you get your knickers in knots about it?

What on earth are you talking about? You can absolutely have tremendously strong downdrafts on the leeward side of a mountain or ridge having absolutely nothing to do with "mountain wave" or thunderstorms. Mountain wave is quite a specific phenomena, and orographic turbulence can exist in a plethora of situations where mountain wave activity is not even possible.

Am I just missing something?

-Fox

 

[z987k]

Go fly in mountains. Wow, aren't you clever. Clearly you failed geography.

All they teach you in ground school.... Really?

Please..... Tell me more about my flying experience, ground schools, and additional training.

Well unless all you are doing here is arguing the semantics of a word, then in your post you demonstrated no idea of what you were talking about.
Mind you, no one is saying this is from sinking air. It's clearly not.

 

[GX]

... O.O;

Wait, what? Are you kidding me? "Mountain waves"?

Now I'm mad, bro! ;> No, but seriously ...



What on earth are you talking about? You can absolutely have tremendously strong downdrafts on the leeward side of a mountain or ridge having absolutely nothing to do with "mountain wave" or thunderstorms. Mountain wave is quite a specific phenomena, and orographic turbulence can exist in a plethora of situations where mountain wave activity is not even possible.

Am I just missing something?

-Fox

Maybe I am the one who's missing something. As it has been taught to me, wind generated on the leeward side of a ridge is a mountain wave. The air is moving, so updrafts, and downdrafts may be present, but by definition, the activity present is called a mountain wave. Is this incorrect?

 

[z987k]

Maybe I am the one who's missing something. As it has been taught to me, wind generated on the leeward side of a ridge is a mountain wave. The air is moving, so updrafts, and downdrafts are present, but by definition, the activity present is called a mountain wave. Is this incorrect?

It depends. Just because there is air moving over the mountains does not mean a wave will develop, or even rising and sinking air. Rising and sinking air can also happen with no wave at all, and no convection at all. It can be very localized. I've seen mountain wave over Omaha, NE and I've seen downdrafts in the sierras so strong you're not going to out climb them in any airplane, yet there was no wave at all.

 

[Tommay85]

It depends. Just because there is air moving over the mountains does not mean a wave will develop, or even rising and sinking air. Rising and sinking air can also happen with no wave at all, and no convection at all. It can be very localized.

The two worst downdrafts I've ever been in was in Dulles and Minneapolis. No mountains, no convection. The air was just like "HEY, I hate your plane! Imma try to smash it!"

 

[z987k]

The two worst downdrafts I've ever been in was in Dulles and Minneapolis. No mountains, no convection. The air was just like "HEY, I hate your plane! Imma try to smash it!"

Did you ever fly around reno? Epic stuff there quite often. Gliders love it.

 

[Tommay85]

This is good discussion! Better than Monday morning quarterbacking!

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Why you mad, bro? We're just talking.

I hate when bad information is spread especially when I used to do mountain instruction.

What does a sky have to do with a downdraft? I don't even understand the question.

You said yourself, "Downdraft with clear skies?" Downdrafts happen no matter what the sky cover is.

But, tell me where the NTSB says that the passenger is a non-rated person. It said "passenger", nothing more, nothing less.

In other places they said they were not pilots and were just on a trip with the guy to go hiking and to a restaurant after.

Winds coming over a ridge on the leeward side of a mountain are known as mountain waves, not downdrafts. You're a CFI?

Mountain wave is the updraft and downdraft continuing many hundreds of miles from the ridge. A simple one movement up or down is a referred to as an updraft or downdraft in the mountain flying arena. Yes, I am a CFI, although not teaching much anymore. I suggest you read this before you embarrass yourself further. http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0705.html#aim0705.html.3 Also if you really want to know about mountain flying Sparky had some good books. http://www.mountainflying.com/

From the CSEL Written: A downdraft is a sign that a thunderstorm is in what stage?
A. Dissipating
B. Mature
C. Developing

So you are taking a meteorological question and applying it to mountain flying?

If you're not taking a position with the downdraft being a contributing factor, why would you get your knickers in knots about it?

Like I said before, it is an attempt at stopping the spread of incorrect information.

 

[fholbert]

 

[Ajax]

FYI, there were 4 people on board

 

[GX]

It depends. Just because there is air moving over the mountains does not mean a wave will develop, or even rising and sinking air. Rising and sinking air can also happen with no wave at all, and no convection at all. It can be very localized. I've seen mountain wave over Omaha, NE and I've seen downdrafts in the sierras so strong you're not going to out climb them in any airplane, yet there was no wave at all.

Thanks for further explaining it to me.

 

[fholbert]

I'll assume the terrain may be ascending too.

What's the type aircraft? Anyone know when and where this happened?

 

[z987k]

Ya, those are contributing factors for sure. Did he just forget, or(like at my flight school) was the mixture full rich for takeoff regardless of ANYTHING!

 

[Ajax]

I'll assume the terrain may be ascending too.

What's the type aircraft? Anyone know when and where this happened?

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20120701X65804&key=1

 

[🦈💜]

Maybe I am the one who's missing something. As it has been taught to me, wind generated on the leeward side of a ridge is a mountain wave. The air is moving, so updrafts, and downdrafts may be present, but by definition, the activity present is called a mountain wave. Is this incorrect?

It is incomplete, at best. Mountain wave is a condition of very strong updrafts and downdrafts that continue in a steady state leeward of a peak or ridge, caused by certain conditions but almost always involving a strong wind at the peaks and high-pressure air. It can extend many miles, or hundreds of miles, downrange. You can actually pick it out on satellite pretty well, if you know what to look for. Glider pilots love it... power pilots, not so much.

You can think of ripples in a fast-moving creek caused by a submerged log that you can't see, and you'll get the idea.

A downdraft is just a descending air mass -- its cause is not part of its definition. Conditions experienced in the mountains can very much be classified into updrafts and downdrafts, as well as sideways drafts and, where the wind is blowing hard enough I swear to goodness "inside-out" drafts. The wind does amazing things. Picture again turbulent flow of a flooded creek, and you get the idea. (Is there anything that water analogies CAN'T solve? The world wonders)

~Fox