Goodspeed
Well-Known Member
Ryanair already proposed this but it ultimately never went through
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/travel/ryanair-money-saving-schemes/index.html
Regional airlines cut costs at price of safety
- Thread starter Sisson2011
- Start date
Ryanair already proposed this but it ultimately never went through
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/travel/ryanair-money-saving-schemes/index.html
SteveCostello
My member is well-known.
Wow. I... should be surprised by that.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
If you copy/paste into notepad then copy/paste into here the stories are a lot easier to read
SteveCostello
My member is well-known.
The left most button in the toolbar up there works, as well. It looks like a grey eraser, and is called Remove Formatting.
Remember "Safety is our first priority" as quoted by every Airline CEO. If that is really the case take your time up front getting from gate to gate and if you go over your getting paid. I know the public has no idea's of job, all they care about is getting there. When they are purchasing a ticket they care about cost, but when they are actually on that trip they care about getting there in one piece.
There are reasons why the airline industry and your jobs have changed, but none of them are because of consumer purchasing habits. Consumers have always exercised economic self-interest and made prudent economic choices. To blame consumers is to say that acting in your own economic self interest is somehow inappropriate and demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of economics.
If you want to blame someone, you can blame the government, the unions, and airline management. Due to misplaced governmnt priorities and bureaucractic inefficiencies, our national airspace system is antiquated and inefficient, leading to increased costs and operating inefficiences. When airlinesmodify their business practices in response, the government fines and sanctions them for doing so (e.g. fines for delays in excess of a certain length.). Airline employee groups, who should be outraged and join with industry advocates, instead applaud these actions.
The unions, despite almost 35 years of dramatic changes since deregulation, still cling to old paradigms (seniority systems, longevity systems, inefficient work rules). There is possibly no group better suited to helping airlines run more efficiently that union membership, but union dogma maintains a management vs. labor approach.
Lastly, it is true that airlines have failed because of incorrect business decisions. That's life in a free enterprise system. Again, airline employee groups could be resources, but instead choose to be adversaries, and the same is true for some (most) airline management teams.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I'll ditch my union if you promise to keep or improve my current pay and QOL? Make me an offer if you want my help. Give me a reason to trust you. If you can't make me better off than I am now, then I have no reason to help you. You tell me the old paradigms don't work for you but I'll submit they are my protection FROM you.
Yeah, I could save you a ton of money, like not running my APU for an hour when I could just open a window and put up with the noise, but there is nothing in it for me. You ask me to waive contract for efficiency but offer me nothing. I don't trust you and I have many reasons not to. Cause of that, I will follow my union off a cliff. Have a nice day.....
jrh
Well-Known Member
Excellent post.
The only thing I'd like to add, is that there's a middle ground many pilots ignore. I don't understand why these pilots waste resources for no good reason. If a resource is needed, go ahead and use it of course. I'm not being a penny pinching tightwad, but we've also got to understand where profits come from.
Fuel is a simple example. At my operation, "High Cruise" versus "Normal Cruise" uses 40% more fuel, with only a 5-10% increase in speed. Yet there are pilots who run around in high cruise for no good reason, other than they're tired of sitting in an airplane.
Now, I have no idea what an APU costs per hour to operate, nor do I have any clue what impact these costs would have on the bottom line. Maybe it's negligible in the whole scheme of things.
I guess this is the former "small business manager" side of me coming out, paired with the "pro-union" side of me in my current job. In an industry where everyone has single-digit profit margins, it really does make a difference to have a pilot group who makes an effort towards efficiency. Ultimately, it's good for everybody. Profitable companies mean better job security and in the long run, more money for everyone. I'm ALL about the profit-sharing!
SteveCostello
My member is well-known.
Sad, but true statement. I'm not sure that much of anything could break the decades old tension between pilots and management. It seems incongruous that the two have been at odds for so long. YOU PEOPLE ARE ON THE SAME DAMNED TEAM. Act like some freaking adults for a change.
I read a book on this matter about 15 years ago. Specifically, it was about the history of how ALPA formed. It was a good read. Sad it had to even happen. Pilots and management should be able to act like together like the professionals they are for the betterment of the company, and by extension, the betterment of themselves and the industry as a whole.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Water seeks its own level.
People pay low airline ticket prices because airlines charge that much. Travel is essential to business and as such, we will pay for tickets if they go up.
At some point, there is a maximum price that people will pay depending on need. It really is that simple.
Airlines can bitch and moan all they want about their customers' expectations, but it's the airlines setting the same expectations.
Flying sucks. I'm sitting on an AirTran flight right this minute because I got stuck in ATL last night. After sitting on the ramp for 3 hours last night, we get our release to take off. It's midnight. We were supposed to leave at nine.
Then they closed the runway at DCA for construction. So they cancelled our flight.
The point?
Despite all of the inconvenience and exhaustion and overall lousy experience, I still have to travel and I still would have paid for the tickets. I have little sympathy for the airline.
People pay low airline ticket prices because airlines charge that much. Travel is essential to business and as such, we will pay for tickets if they go up.
At some point, there is a maximum price that people will pay depending on need. It really is that simple.
Airlines can bitch and moan all they want about their customers' expectations, but it's the airlines setting the same expectations.
Flying sucks. I'm sitting on an AirTran flight right this minute because I got stuck in ATL last night. After sitting on the ramp for 3 hours last night, we get our release to take off. It's midnight. We were supposed to leave at nine.
Then they closed the runway at DCA for construction. So they cancelled our flight.
The point?
Despite all of the inconvenience and exhaustion and overall lousy experience, I still have to travel and I still would have paid for the tickets. I have little sympathy for the airline.
SteveCostello said:
At the end of the day when all the customers have been shuttled across the country, the bills paid, and its time to divide the scraps of whats left (profits) between management, labor, and shareholders and see whos team you're on.
Id rather have an agreement (union contract) on how much im compensated for exactly what i have to do, spelled out in writing, enforced by a court before I waste my life away making money for someone else. Just saying.
SteveCostello
My member is well-known.
Oh, absolutely. Don't think for a moment that I wouldn't want the same. I'm just saying that it is sad that things have become so adversarial.
No one is asking you to "ditch your union." But your union is not dealing with the realities of today's airline industry. Just a couple of examples: Unions negotiate 10,12, and 15 years pay scales. Entry level Captains making $60 an hour, while senior Captains making $100. Carrier A has a pilot roster where half the group is earning top of scale, so the flying gets shifted to Carrier B, who now hires a bunch of pilots at the entry level wages, giving them a significant cost advantage. To compound the problem, the seniority system. dictates that Carrier A now has to lay off a bunch of pilots in reverse seniority order, which further drives up their costs, making themeven more uncompetitive. Those laid off pilots now have to go find new jobs, but the seniority system demands they start off at entry level wages, causing even more economic hardship for them.
Seniority and longevity systems may have been fine in an era where competition was stricly regulated, but it doesn't work too well in a competitive marketplace. Yet "your union" continues to cling to these paradigms.
You guys know your airplanes; you guys know the environment you're operating in. You know more about how to make your airline operate more efficiently than any member of management ever could. But you assume and adversarial position, and that information is lost. So follow your union off that cliff. Be sure to say hello to those Eastern and Pan Am pilots on the way down.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Pilots just don't have spines. A work force that has a pair of nuts, doesn't need a union. You don't need a union to draw up a contract either. I'm not sure what the alternative could possibly be to the seniority system. Increase the bottom end and lower the top end drastically? Maybe, but people are too short-sighted to realize that 10k more at the bottom end is better than 10k more at the top end.
Unions had their place. They still do in some regards, but when it comes to economic down turns, they don't really do anything more than destroy the company the employees work for, of whom they represent. I'm looking at you UAW! Though, GM built some serious crap and tried to get away with it for too long, but the union sure wasn't willing to budge an inch to save the company. As conservative as pilots are, I'm surprised the majority are pro-union, or at least on board with their antiquated way of doing things. However, I do see the possible negative impact of direct contact with management when in negotiations.
The downward spiral is just going to continue, if not get worse with my generation of pilots. "ZOMG, I MUST fly a JEEEEEETTTT part 121!" Unfortunately, the joke is on us pilots who have chosen to take stand by not participating in the 121 regional non-sense.
Without some serious serious increases in profits, I doubt we'll ever seen pay go back to "a Cadillac a month". All the airlines could get together and raise ticket prices. Those that are profitable, will get even more. Those that are JUST barely in the black will probably not be passing that on to the employees. Pilots at places like Southwest and some of the freight companies would probably see a pay increase. Legacy carriers? Not a chance.
I'm coming off as trying to be a "know it all". Not my intent. Just my observations over the years. Discuss away.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
You enjoy taking your stand.
I'll enjoy not getting canned for calling in fatigued.
http://www.sltrib.com//ci_7154311?IADID
I'll enjoy not getting canned for calling in fatigued.
http://www.sltrib.com//ci_7154311?IADID
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Derailment time!
This isn't directed towards you, but I guess I'm just sick of all the whining. Vote with your job application if you don't like how things are. Especially my "class of pilots". Sites like this existed when we were in high school. It's never ever been a secret of the pay, which companies are crap, which companies notoriously over-hire and then furlough and what happens when the economy farts. I'm only reiterating what's said on this forum time and time again. If you don't want the spiral to continue, don't be a part of it. However, HR departments have gotten silly, so you almost have to these days.
Oh, and I'm a machine. Machines don't fatigue.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Don't like how things are? Things are fine where I'm at. My chief pilots office is one of the best I've had the privilege to deal with (THE BEST were the guys that were running Amflight in 2006/2007. Those guys were truly the best in the business). Management hasn't tried to fire me, or anybody I know, without cause.
That being said, there have been there different management groups here since I got hired. The first one were some great folks, really know how to run an airline. The second group nearly destroyed the company. The third, and current, group of people seem to have things together. That being said, those managers have come and gone, and it's us, the pilots, who are left holding the bag. With that, I want some protection from the transient nature of management in corporate America today.
EDIT: Sorry for the late edit, but I've also got to add, that when you were in high school, I was likely one of the folks here leading the charge of how much regionals suck. As things usually happen in life, as you get a little older and see a few more things, you start to realize that the truth is a little more nuanced than you had initially anticipated. Not ALL regionals suck. There is, in fact, a WIDE breadth of pay and work rules at the regional level. What I will continue to hammer are two things: that I wouldn't give up my experiences at Amflight for anything and I recommend the same path to anybody that has the interest, and that first year at ANY regional sucks. While I see now that my time at Amflight was limited for some reasons I didn't anticipate, the people I worked with, and the work that I did there made me the pilot I am today. Further, with regard to the first year at a regional, there's no way of getting around how bad it is.
With that being said, forward movement almost always requires sacrifice and hard work. There are no paths in life that are not fraught with sacrifice that lead to anywhere worthwhile. Dealing with that first year at a regional is, in the modern ladder of civilian career progression, is very likely an unavoidable step.
That being said, there have been there different management groups here since I got hired. The first one were some great folks, really know how to run an airline. The second group nearly destroyed the company. The third, and current, group of people seem to have things together. That being said, those managers have come and gone, and it's us, the pilots, who are left holding the bag. With that, I want some protection from the transient nature of management in corporate America today.
EDIT: Sorry for the late edit, but I've also got to add, that when you were in high school, I was likely one of the folks here leading the charge of how much regionals suck. As things usually happen in life, as you get a little older and see a few more things, you start to realize that the truth is a little more nuanced than you had initially anticipated. Not ALL regionals suck. There is, in fact, a WIDE breadth of pay and work rules at the regional level. What I will continue to hammer are two things: that I wouldn't give up my experiences at Amflight for anything and I recommend the same path to anybody that has the interest, and that first year at ANY regional sucks. While I see now that my time at Amflight was limited for some reasons I didn't anticipate, the people I worked with, and the work that I did there made me the pilot I am today. Further, with regard to the first year at a regional, there's no way of getting around how bad it is.
With that being said, forward movement almost always requires sacrifice and hard work. There are no paths in life that are not fraught with sacrifice that lead to anywhere worthwhile. Dealing with that first year at a regional is, in the modern ladder of civilian career progression, is very likely an unavoidable step.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Fair enough on all counts. Like I said, the middle part of my post wasn't directed towards you. There's some good in the 121 regional world. I know LOTS of happy people over at Air Wisky, those are the kinds of places that are good and applications should be heading towards, and if it doesn't work out, not selling out to places like, say, Great Lakes, and THEN complaining about it. Why am I not there? They weren't hiring when I jumped to the dark side(literally) and I'm still confident in coming through the back door in 2-3 years. 5 years is my cutoff however and those 5 years would have been a waste. Oh well, 35 more years to work at that point!
Similar threads
