Regional Pilots, Poverty Wages or No?

[surreal1221]

I really never got the point of this thread from the very second post. Surreal, I don't get it and I usually domn't have much issue with your posts. Seems to me the fact is salaries are piss poor. So what if they're actually 2, 3 or even 5K above the official federal declared by god poverty line. They're still poverty wages period. Why you would even waste time arguing that is beyond me?

If I make 60K, ok yeah in probably 80% of cities that's a great livable wage. In NYC, that's pretty much poiverty level wages. 4 times above the official level. It's all relative. The point is, regional airline salaries are piss poor, many charter and freight joints' salaries are piss porr. Amerijet's salaries are piss poor. Why even bother to argue the Amerijet union statement on the basics of semantics?

Initially, I took issue with the IBT claiming that their flightdeck crew members were making poverty level wages in a public press release.

Perhaps I'm alone in thinking that it'd be wise for a union to be honest with the flying public rather than insert subtle lies that not too many people would evaluate to see if they are indeed factual.

It's already been beaten to death, but my point was merely to put an end to the usual fallacy of regional pilots making poverty wages as stated by the federal government. I also don't consider compiling the data to be arguing. But, if it works for you, it works for you.

Jynxyjoe got it on page two.

Surreal is correct that we do not make the Fed definition of poverty level, he has also said a couple times he is not defending the crap pay we get. The reality is, there aren't real federal definitions for what we get paid.

Surreal brought up a good point, the arguments by the unions need to be based on facts.

Yes, they're low. Yes, we must continue to improve them. Yes, we must also continue to put time and effort in improving our work rules and benefits. We should never say enough is enough.

 

[Rocketman99]

That's cool man, I'm just saying. It's still making an issue on semantics. Within a few thousand dollars is still accurate as far as I'm concerned, especially at such a low amount. Of course, that's just my opinion and YMMV...and apparently it does.

 

[surreal1221]

Peace! It happens!

Trust me guys, I get what all (well - most of you who were rational about this) of you are saying.

As a pilot who was mislead by his own union, I'm not too understanding to why our respective bargaining agents think they have to lie to the flying public in order to gain their support. That's all.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Anything below a living wage is by definition a poverty wage, in my opinion. The press release did not say 'Below the poverty line as defined by the federal government or state government.' In our common vernacular the 'poverty line' has gained the connotation of being a wage where below it you live in poverty, which is a reasonable definition and fits. It was appropriately used IMHO.

 

[MikeD]

Anything below a living wage is by definition a poverty wage, in my opinion. The press release did not say 'Below the poverty line as defined by the federal government or state government.' In our common vernacular the 'poverty line' has gained the connotation of being a wage where below it you live in poverty, which is a reasonable definition and fits. It was appropriately used IMHO.

Though the press release was vague and didn't get specific, that's how I read it in relation to 1st year regional pay.

Poverty to one may not be poverty to another, part and parcel from the legal numbers.

 

[surreal1221]

Actually, the press release wasn't vague, and was specific.

Teamsters Urge Amerijet to Return to Bargaining Table





Statement By Captain David Bourne, Director, Airline Division, International Brotherhood of Teamsters, On Amerijet Strike
FT. LAUDERDALE, Fla., Aug. 28 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The following statement was released today by Capt. David Bourne, director of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters Airline Division, on behalf of striking Amerijet pilots, Local 769 and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters:
"Despite Amerijet's walkout from negotiations and refusal to negotiate in good faith, we and the federal mediator remain at the table waiting for Amerijet management to return and negotiate with honesty and integrity. The failure to reach a fair agreement and avoid this strike rests squarely on the shoulders of a management and law firm whose union-busting practices caused this strike. Amerijet management feels it's perfectly acceptable to pay substandard wages and provide unsanitary and unsafe working conditions to its airline pilots. Its law firm specializes in preventing pilots from exercising their legal rights to representation and a decent contract.
"Amerijet's management feels justified in paying the same substandard wages today that they have paid since 1999 - wages that are below the federal poverty level in many cases. They also feel justified in demanding to further cut pay if a crewmember is ill and not legally able to fly. Substandard conditions and pressure to fly sick are being considered as a factor in the tragic crash of Colgan 3407 this year.
"It's reprehensible that we now see the same thing happening here in South Florida. To refuse to provide drinking water or meals on extended flights, to refuse to provide a safe operating environment, speaks volumes to the kind of airline Amerijet wants to run.
"Amerijet's senior vice president of Business Development insulted his customers when he said there has been no interruption of service. Last night, two Boeing 767 aircraft operated for them by ABX were grounded by pilots who refused to cross the Amerijet picket line. Those two flights represent more than 372,000 pounds of freight per airplane that is not shipped for customers. In addition, two Amerijet 727's were grounded because of the strike.
"Perishable food will not get to grocery shelves in San Juan and other islands and critical oil rig parts won't get to Trinidad. Fresh fish, flowers and other cargo will not come to the customers of South Florida and elsewhere. Each 727 that does not fly is another 120,000 pounds of cargo that is not moving for customers.
"For Amerijet management to trumpet their recent multimillion dollar acquisitions while claiming they can't afford to give back the money they took from their pilots - or provide a 3 percent pay raise that does not even cover cost of living increases - speaks to their lack of core values. To them, this five-year process has been about one thing: breaking the union.
"The millions spent over five years trying to deny the pilots their legal rights as Americans to a union is staggering when compared to the small amount they are asking for. It's time for Amerijet to come back to the table, negotiate honestly and fairly and become a real airline.
"We're still here and we're still waiting."


SOURCE International Brotherhood of Teamsters

It's okay guys.

Spira, as I already indicated to Mike, what is a livable wage to individual A, may not be to individual B. The deciding factor is not what he is paid, but how the individual has allocated his resources and manages his finances.

A 150k a year wage should certainly be livable, but if a person has over extended themselves, they're going to have a hard time convincing someone who is making 40k a year that has their eggs in order that they are not enjoying a livable wage.

Anyway, to me the press release is quite specific. They even stated "federal poverty level." Doesn't get much more specific than that.

At least that first section of that sentence is correct. AMJ wages are indeed substandard, and a shame. But, that's why we have collective bargaining units to negotiate these items on our behalf. I certainly hope they see a honest increase in their earning potential when this is all said and done.

 

[MikeD]

In the end, all of it is kind of moot.

On the pay issue for airline pilots, generally speaking, I don't think any amount of raising the issue will garner much public support for change. It's just not something the public cares about, so long as theyre getting their $59 one-way fare.

And regional pilots will continue to get the shaft and never have a leg to stand on with the issue.....not with just lack of public support, but with always having someone that will work for less.

A 150k a year wage should certainly be livable, but if a person has over extended themselves, they're going to have a hard time convincing someone who is making 40k a year that has their eggs in order that they are not enjoying a livable wage.

As would FO Shaw to the 40k person. Its not always easy to keep one's eggs in order when there are hardly any eggs to work with.

 

[surreal1221]

Well, so long as we can agree that the press release was not vague and was specific is all I'm after now.

I'm pretty sure the majority of us are in agreement in regards to the substandard conditions most 121 pilots in the regional environment are working under.

As would FO Shaw to the 40k person. Its not always easy to keep one's eggs in order when there are hardly any eggs to work with.

Which proves my point.

While, those of us who are in this segment, recognized what we were getting into, some of us prepared, some of us didn't. Neither is necessarily right, but I'm not going to listen to woe-is-me stories by 19 or 22 year olds fresh into the work force for the first time. When, I know that others saved a great deal of money before a career change, or didn't over extend themselves for the "dream" to fly for a living.

Nevertheless, as previously indicated, no employee should ever be happy with the amount of money their employer is paying them. There is always room for improvement.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I would echo that the news release is factually incorrect. QED

We less rhetoric and more facts in this industry.

 

[Trip7]

I don't know what all you high rollers are spending on that got you so broke, but I'm just a 2nd yr regional FO and I got plenty money. If we can squeeze more money out of the company Im all for it but I'm not gunna stand around outside in full uniform with a sign saying I'm making poverty wages.

And yes you can find living accommodations in base for around $500 bucks a month. Craiglist/Company Classified Ads is your friend.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I don't know what all you high rollers are spending on that got you so broke, but I'm just a 2nd yr regional FO and I got plenty money. If we can squeeze more money out of the company Im all for it but I'm not gunna stand around outside in full uniform with a sign saying I'm making poverty wages.

And yes you can find living accommodations in base for around $500 bucks a month. Craiglist/Company Classified Ads is your friend.

:banghead:

 

[IrishSheepdog]

I don't know what all you high rollers are spending on that got you so broke, but I'm just a 2nd yr regional FO and I got plenty money.

You better be spending that money on condoms. God forbid you slip one past the goalie and suddenly have another mouth to feed besides your own. I'm sure then you'd have quite a different viewpoint on the "high rollers." :whatever:

 

[jynxyjoe]

You better be spending that money on condoms. God forbid you slip one past the goalie and suddenly have another mouth to feed besides your own. I'm sure then you'd have quite a different viewpoint on the "high rollers." :whatever:

More evidence that newbies to this industry have more knowledge than anyone else. When you are in the airlines too long, you get corrupted.

 

[kellwolf]

:banghead:

I was gonna say something, but I think Todd said it best.....

 

[Firebird2XC]

I don't know what all you high rollers are spending on that got you so broke, but I'm just a 2nd yr regional FO and I got plenty money. If we can squeeze more money out of the company Im all for it but I'm not gunna stand around outside in full uniform with a sign saying I'm making poverty wages.

And yes you can find living accommodations in base for around $500 bucks a month. Craiglist/Company Classified Ads is your friend.

Another brilliant statement by Trip7, management apologist and management hopeful.

Coming to an assistant chief pilot's position near you soon.

Watch for your VERY OWN knife in your BACK!

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I don't know what all you high rollers are spending on that got you so broke, but I'm just a 2nd yr regional FO and I got plenty money. If we can squeeze more money out of the company Im all for it but I'm not gunna stand around outside in full uniform with a sign saying I'm making poverty wages.

And yes you can find living accommodations in base for around $500 bucks a month. Craiglist/Company Classified Ads is your friend.

You're the man Marcus...but come on. $28k a year before taxes is hardly "plenty of money" for the work we do.

And there's no damn reason that a professional should have to live with a roommate in order to live somewhere nice.

 

[surreal1221]

You're the man Marcus...but come on. $28k a year before taxes is hardly "plenty of money" for the work we do.

And there's no damn reason that a professional should have to live with a roommate in order to live somewhere nice.

You see, that's the difference Joe.

Some of our peers don't really consider themselves a professional.

 

[Trip7]

You better be spending that money on condoms. God forbid you slip one past the goalie and suddenly have another mouth to feed besides your own. I'm sure then you'd have quite a different viewpoint on the "high rollers." :whatever:

Whatever your situation is you gotta do what's best for you and figure out a way to live the lifestyle you want. I'm a "go get it" type person. If I need an extra thousand bucks next month I know exactly what I have to do. If I happen to not know, I figure out a way to do it. I'm not one to go begging about my money problems to the public who happen to have their own problems to worry about in the midst of the the worst economic crisis of our generation.

All my man Surreal was trying to say was a black and white statement based on facts. That Ameri-whatever did not pay poverty wages and that regional pay was not poverty wages. Then here you guys go adding kids, credit cards, car loans, and all kinds of ridiculous stuff to fit your personal definition of poverty.

BTW I do have a kid, his name is Student Loan. He should be out of the bird's nest by his 10th birthday. After that having a real child should be a piece of cake compared to him(financially speaking of course)

You're the man Marcus...but come on. $28k a year before taxes is hardly "plenty of money" for the work we do.

And there's no damn reason that a professional should have to live with a roommate in order to live somewhere nice.

28k before taxes? By my calculations we're at $34,200 before taxes. And I'm on pace to be way over that. And with my other business ventures on pace to be way over that. Why? Because I have better things to do than complain about my problems to people who have their own problems.

Your second statement is an opinion that has so many variables based on that professional's "situation" and of course that professional's definition of "nice"

 

[ppragman]

You see, that's the difference Joe.

Some of our peers don't really consider themselves a professional.

How can you at 250TT at date of hire?

 

[IrishSheepdog]

Here we have it folks, a prime example of everything that is wrong with our industry. Unreal.

Ameri-whatever? Very classy Marcus.