That could apply across the board in so many regionals...
Regional Pilots, Poverty Wages or No?
- Thread starter MikeD
- Start date
That could apply across the board in so many regionals...
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
Not that I'm excusing it. . .but. . .
Which ones Mike?
I'll be conservative and go with the two person family figure for 2009 of $14,570 for the lower 48 and DC, $18,210 for Alaska, and $16,760 for Hawaii [1].
Looks like only one out of those is below the federally recognized poverty level of 2009. Certainly doesn't appear "so many regionals" are below the poverty level.
AmeriJet pilots would have to have a 7 member family before they reached anywhere close to federal poverty level. MMG of 65x45 = 2925(12) = $35,100 annual income. Poverty level for 7 person family in the lower 48 is $33,270, and an 8 person family is $37,010. Even Second Officers, who, with a MMG of 65x37 = $2405(12) = $28860 annual income, would need to have a 6 person family before reaching below the federal poverty level. Whoever wrote that press release Polar linked stating the statement you quoted isn't be too honest, and while I may agree the wages across the board are too low, they're certainly not below the federal poverty level in "most cases."
I took the time to do this to put to rest the nice little "poverty wages" monologue so often referenced around here. Since this forum is, after all, a place where education can occur, we shouldn't allow such misinformation from spreading without actually taking a look at the numbers.
All pay data compiled assumed minimum monthly guarantee times lowest FO rate at the company (1st year, smallest airframe). Figure multiplied by 12 months for an annual income figure.
1. http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09poverty.shtml
a. Paid by duty hour. 35 min hour per week, for a 140 hour min per month.
b. No MMG listed at APC. Assumed a 75 hour MMG.
c. Salaried
d. $1100 per month with $11 an hour per flight hour. Assumed 50 hours of flight pay per month for 550 per month, and 6600 per year on top of the base 13200 annual salary.
Not that I'm excusing it. . .but. . .
Which ones Mike?
I'll be conservative and go with the two person family figure for 2009 of $14,570 for the lower 48 and DC, $18,210 for Alaska, and $16,760 for Hawaii [1].
Looks like only one out of those is below the federally recognized poverty level of 2009. Certainly doesn't appear "so many regionals" are below the poverty level.
AmeriJet pilots would have to have a 7 member family before they reached anywhere close to federal poverty level. MMG of 65x45 = 2925(12) = $35,100 annual income. Poverty level for 7 person family in the lower 48 is $33,270, and an 8 person family is $37,010. Even Second Officers, who, with a MMG of 65x37 = $2405(12) = $28860 annual income, would need to have a 6 person family before reaching below the federal poverty level. Whoever wrote that press release Polar linked stating the statement you quoted isn't be too honest, and while I may agree the wages across the board are too low, they're certainly not below the federal poverty level in "most cases."
I took the time to do this to put to rest the nice little "poverty wages" monologue so often referenced around here. Since this forum is, after all, a place where education can occur, we shouldn't allow such misinformation from spreading without actually taking a look at the numbers.
All pay data compiled assumed minimum monthly guarantee times lowest FO rate at the company (1st year, smallest airframe). Figure multiplied by 12 months for an annual income figure.
1. http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09poverty.shtml
a. Paid by duty hour. 35 min hour per week, for a 140 hour min per month.
b. No MMG listed at APC. Assumed a 75 hour MMG.
c. Salaried
d. $1100 per month with $11 an hour per flight hour. Assumed 50 hours of flight pay per month for 550 per month, and 6600 per year on top of the base 13200 annual salary.
Attachments
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
Fine, the 3 person family poverty level for the lower 48 is $18,310, $22,890 for AK, and $21,060 for HI.
Mesa, Cape Air, Commutair, Gulfstream, PenAir now can be grouped with Great Lakes as being below the poverty level for 3 person family.
A PenAir 3 person family pilot could be above the poverty level though if they flew more than 73.4 flight hours per month.
That 1st year FO at AmeriJet is $16790 above the poverty level with his/her three person family.
That's still only 6 out of 25. Six doesn't make "so many," when there are twenty-five total. It is certainly not the norm that regional pilots are living under the poverty level, which is the misconception I'm trying to address. The numbers don't lie.
Fine, the 3 person family poverty level for the lower 48 is $18,310, $22,890 for AK, and $21,060 for HI.
Mesa, Cape Air, Commutair, Gulfstream, PenAir now can be grouped with Great Lakes as being below the poverty level for 3 person family.
A PenAir 3 person family pilot could be above the poverty level though if they flew more than 73.4 flight hours per month.
That 1st year FO at AmeriJet is $16790 above the poverty level with his/her three person family.
That's still only 6 out of 25. Six doesn't make "so many," when there are twenty-five total. It is certainly not the norm that regional pilots are living under the poverty level, which is the misconception I'm trying to address. The numbers don't lie.
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
Why are we debating this?
Add one more kid so a 4 person family 23-25 is below poverty level.
I'm sure that most of these numbers don't take into account $500 month loans for training and school.
Why are we debating this?
Add one more kid so a 4 person family 23-25 is below poverty level.
I'm sure that most of these numbers don't take into account $500 month loans for training and school.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
Why should they?
The federal poverty levels are computed through a number of means, but not everyone has a $500 a month loan payment. That's an individual decision that doesn't even come into play.
Look jhugz, you can keep adding one more person all you want. But the numbers I used are the most conservative possible. The notes are there as well. You're more than welcomed to compile your own data if you wish, with your own notes indicating your greatness, showing to all of us how so many regional pilots are living below the poverty level.
One, the press release from the IBT states that AmeriJet pilots are working with wages below the poverty level, which in reality you'd have to have a 8 (FOs) or 6 (SOs) person family before getting there. And, I'd be willing to bet there are not too many first year FOs/SOs at AmeriJet right now, so that further erodes the credibility of the press release.
Then, for someone to say "so many regionals," also isn't all that true when you do the math. Most of those regionals have guys out on the street who were either first or second year FOs. The ones that still have pilots, most of them have moved up to second year pay, thus putting an even larger gap between the 2 person family poverty level or the three, or four person poverty level.
It's real simple.
Most regional pilots, and most pilots, are no where near the federal poverty levels for their respective sizes of families. So there is no point trying to continue to spread that nugget of misinformation.
Why should they?
The federal poverty levels are computed through a number of means, but not everyone has a $500 a month loan payment. That's an individual decision that doesn't even come into play.
Look jhugz, you can keep adding one more person all you want. But the numbers I used are the most conservative possible. The notes are there as well. You're more than welcomed to compile your own data if you wish, with your own notes indicating your greatness, showing to all of us how so many regional pilots are living below the poverty level.
One, the press release from the IBT states that AmeriJet pilots are working with wages below the poverty level, which in reality you'd have to have a 8 (FOs) or 6 (SOs) person family before getting there. And, I'd be willing to bet there are not too many first year FOs/SOs at AmeriJet right now, so that further erodes the credibility of the press release.
Then, for someone to say "so many regionals," also isn't all that true when you do the math. Most of those regionals have guys out on the street who were either first or second year FOs. The ones that still have pilots, most of them have moved up to second year pay, thus putting an even larger gap between the 2 person family poverty level or the three, or four person poverty level.
It's real simple.
Most regional pilots, and most pilots, are no where near the federal poverty levels for their respective sizes of families. So there is no point trying to continue to spread that nugget of misinformation.
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
No your right, we should just sit back and accept our McDonald's Assistant Manager wages and praise our union for all the work it has done us.
No your right, we should just sit back and accept our McDonald's Assistant Manager wages and praise our union for all the work it has done us.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
Not sure how this got turned into a debate on the poverty level but I can tell you back when I was at an RAH carrier I was qualifing for public assistance on 3rd year FO pay which was nowhere near 36K. The regional payscale is BS.
Amerijet is definately underpaid for the equipment they are flying and the job they do.
Not sure how this got turned into a debate on the poverty level but I can tell you back when I was at an RAH carrier I was qualifing for public assistance on 3rd year FO pay which was nowhere near 36K. The regional payscale is BS.
Amerijet is definately underpaid for the equipment they are flying and the job they do.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
LOL.
"We" should sit back? When did you become a 121 regional pilot? This is rich. An FA, who I'm sure makes undoubtedly less than the two guys up front, thinking people are sitting back and joyfully accepting their peanuts. Man, you are good.
Now, go ahead and go on back up to the top of my post to MikeD and read the first couple of sentences again.
"Not that I'm excusing it. . ." And that was in relation to excusing the notion that regionals are paying their pilots below poverty wages, which in reality, is not necessarily the case.
Trust me, I'm not accepting anything. Then again, I'm not running around telling people I make poverty level wages.
No doubt about it. But, if we're tossing around poverty level wages, we might as well know what we're talking about.
Just because you qualify for public assistance doesn't necessarily clasify you as a below poverty level employee, just means we're getting paid crap to do crap.
LOL.
"We" should sit back? When did you become a 121 regional pilot? This is rich. An FA, who I'm sure makes undoubtedly less than the two guys up front, thinking people are sitting back and joyfully accepting their peanuts. Man, you are good.
Now, go ahead and go on back up to the top of my post to MikeD and read the first couple of sentences again.
"Not that I'm excusing it. . ." And that was in relation to excusing the notion that regionals are paying their pilots below poverty wages, which in reality, is not necessarily the case.
Trust me, I'm not accepting anything. Then again, I'm not running around telling people I make poverty level wages.
No doubt about it. But, if we're tossing around poverty level wages, we might as well know what we're talking about.
Just because you qualify for public assistance doesn't necessarily clasify you as a below poverty level employee, just means we're getting paid crap to do crap.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
"Our union?" You ain't a member of my union. Back to serving drinks and selling flight instruction without a certificate. :rotfl:
"Our union?" You ain't a member of my union. Back to serving drinks and selling flight instruction without a certificate. :rotfl:
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
true..that is why I left them...
LOL.
"We" should sit back? When did you become a 121 regional pilot? This is rich. An FA, who I'm sure makes undoubtedly less than the two guys up front, thinking people are sitting back and joyfully accepting their peanuts. Man, you are good.
Now, go ahead and go on back up to the top of my post to MikeD and read the first couple of sentences again.
"Not that I'm excusing it. . ." And that was in relation to excusing the notion that regionals are paying their pilots below poverty wages, which in reality, is not necessarily the case.
Trust me, I'm not accepting anything. Then again, I'm not running around telling people I make poverty level wages.
No doubt about it. But, if we're tossing around poverty level wages, we might as well know what we're talking about.
Just because you qualify for public assistance doesn't necessarily clasify you as a below poverty level employee, just means we're getting paid crap to do crap.
true..that is why I left them...
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
He couldn't go anywhere when numbers were presented, so he resorts to ad hominem attacks on people and a professional group he knows nothing about.
When were you with Shuttle? Mo/Year to Mo/Year.
He couldn't go anywhere when numbers were presented, so he resorts to ad hominem attacks on people and a professional group he knows nothing about.
Bandit Driver said:
When were you with Shuttle? Mo/Year to Mo/Year.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
US Air Express Saabs thru E170 transition....So I am old shuttle...
US Air Express Saabs thru E170 transition....So I am old shuttle...
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
Look, I'm about that LAST guy to defend Jhugz but you guys should REALLY look in the mirror before you start saying stuff like that. You two are two of the most polarized board members here and when people don't agree with your (sometimes) way out there opinion, often times, your first response is ad hominem attacks and insults. At the end of the day it doesn't bother me any. I know BS when I see it, but keep in mind that there are tons of members and lurkers on here who DON'T know the score and when they see the crap that gets posted it may make them wonder just a little bit.
Anyhow, back to the strike thread.
Look, I'm about that LAST guy to defend Jhugz but you guys should REALLY look in the mirror before you start saying stuff like that. You two are two of the most polarized board members here and when people don't agree with your (sometimes) way out there opinion, often times, your first response is ad hominem attacks and insults. At the end of the day it doesn't bother me any. I know BS when I see it, but keep in mind that there are tons of members and lurkers on here who DON'T know the score and when they see the crap that gets posted it may make them wonder just a little bit.
Anyhow, back to the strike thread.
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
Our union is so awesome guys...not only do we make 20k a year we also only got 14 hr duty days. Look at all the work they have done for us. Please excuse me while I hurl. You keep drinking the kool-aide but until we start making a livable wage this union is a joke. UAW are making more then captain to screw a damn lug nut onto a car tire on the assembly line while with great benefits and such. Or how about the teacher's union. Most of us are teachers right? Started as flight instructors. They make more money then us working about half the time with great work rules and better benefits.
When I say our union I use that term figuratively for all pilots. Please trust me I don't want to be associated with it at all.
Our union is so awesome guys...not only do we make 20k a year we also only got 14 hr duty days. Look at all the work they have done for us. Please excuse me while I hurl. You keep drinking the kool-aide but until we start making a livable wage this union is a joke. UAW are making more then captain to screw a damn lug nut onto a car tire on the assembly line while with great benefits and such. Or how about the teacher's union. Most of us are teachers right? Started as flight instructors. They make more money then us working about half the time with great work rules and better benefits.
When I say our union I use that term figuratively for all pilots. Please trust me I don't want to be associated with it at all.
Divine Wind
New Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
You sound bitter. I take it you are not nor ever have been either an airline pilot or a pilot union member. So why the bitterness towards them?
You sound bitter. I take it you are not nor ever have been either an airline pilot or a pilot union member. So why the bitterness towards them?
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
I just don't believe ALPA is the be all end all as others do on this forum. There are some great contracts negotiated without "The Union".
I just don't believe ALPA is the be all end all as others do on this forum. There are some great contracts negotiated without "The Union".
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
So long as you recognize you're the one who brought "the union" into this discussion.
I tried to provide some factual basis for defeating the "poverty wages" statement, yet you're only focused on attacking trade unionism.
To me, there is a significant disconnect. One in which you don't even care about the initial discussion. You have your ball, and you're only going to play with it. So be it.
So long as you recognize you're the one who brought "the union" into this discussion.
I tried to provide some factual basis for defeating the "poverty wages" statement, yet you're only focused on attacking trade unionism.
To me, there is a significant disconnect. One in which you don't even care about the initial discussion. You have your ball, and you're only going to play with it. So be it.
jhugz
Guppy gear swinger
Re: Amerijet On Strike!
I tried to discuss numbers with you but yet you blew them off. If you want to hide behind them fine...but if you actual want to break it down and figure it out then lets get at it.
I tried to discuss numbers with you but yet you blew them off. If you want to hide behind them fine...but if you actual want to break it down and figure it out then lets get at it.
