Regional Pilots, Poverty Wages or No?

[surreal1221]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

Look, I'm about that LAST guy to defend Jhugz but you guys should REALLY look in the mirror before you start saying stuff like that. You two are two of the most polarized board members here and when people don't agree with your (sometimes) way out there opinion, often times, your first response is ad hominem attacks and insults. At the end of the day it doesn't bother me any. I know BS when I see it, but keep in mind that there are tons of members and lurkers on here who DON'T know the score and when they see the crap that gets posted it may make them wonder just a little bit.

Anyhow, back to the strike thread.

Okay.

And my posts that addressed the fallacy of pilots living under the poverty level was polarizing? And, specifically, what about my recent posts regarding that discussion was way out there? After all, that was what I was trying to do.

Yet, we want to have that sub-discussion side tracked by a guy who 1) is a Flight Attendant, 2) Has never worked as a 121 pilot, and 3) doesn't know a thing about trade unionism outside or inside the professional pilot community, and 4) trying to "inform" those of us who have walked the walk and might actually be able to talk to talk as well? Sorry, but he doesn't have much credibility with me. He might, perhaps, one day. Should he ever put the emotional irrational rants aside and actually discuss the data which was being discussed. But, he doesn't seem to want to do that.

I'm not going to apologize for my posts that were in a direct attempt to refute the notion that pilots are living below the poverty level. A member stated that it was the norm amongst regionals, I provided data to correct the fallacy, and jhugz thinks it's an opportunity to jump on the anti-union bandwagon as if he knows something?

I tried to discuss numbers with you but yet you blew them off. If you want to hide behind them fine...but if you actual want to break it down and figure it out then lets get at it.

Do it. Let's get at it. I've already done the leg work for you.

I have already provided the lowest pay rates for any possible regional airline pilot in this country. It takes 9 months to make a child. Take your 2 person family poverty rate, extrapolate the data for 5 or 6 additional children over a period of 8 years (conservative number giving breaks in-between pregnancies). Show me then, what 1st year FOs who started at the 2 person family rate will be below the poverty level as they increase in longevity while they grow their family.

 

[jhugz]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

Lets take the best pay for a 1st year FO.

Horizon at 27,840 year first year = $1750 a month after taxes.

A brand new Kia Rio at $12,190 costs 230 dollars a month @ 5 percent.

Leaving us with $1520 a month.

Let's add in a cheap ghetto economy apartment at $500 a month if your lucky.

Now down to $1020 a month.

Water, Sewage, Elect, and Gas ~ Maybe $100 a month if your lucky.

$920 a month left.

$50,000 loan for college and training at 10% over 20 years = 480 Dollars a month.

$460 a month left.

$120 a month in Gas for your Car

$340 left.

$140 a month for food and booze ~ About 4.5 Dollars a day.

$200 left disposable income if you live alone without any other mouths to feed at the best regional living completely lean.

Let's put this into prospective. If you make it through your full first year and save all that $200 dollars your first year you would have about a 1.5 months of savings in the event of a furlough.

I would feel bad for the person at C5 making 10 grand less then this or how about Lakes making 15 less.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

This isn't a thread about ALPA, guys. This is a thread about Amerijet pilots and their current attempt to stand up for their livelihood.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

Lets take the best pay for a 1st year FO.

Horizon at 27,840 year first year = $1750 a month after taxes.

A brand new Kia Rio at $12,190 costs 230 dollars a month @ 5 percent.

Leaving us with $1520 a month.

Let's add in a cheap ghetto economy apartment at $500 a month if your lucky.

Now down to $1020 a month.

Water, Sewage, Elect, and Gas ~ Maybe $100 a month if your lucky.

$920 a month left.

$50,000 loan for college and training at 10% over 20 years = 480 Dollars a month.

$460 a month left.

$120 a month in Gas for your Car

$340 left.

$140 a month for food and booze ~ About 4.5 Dollars a day.

$200 left disposable income if you live alone without any other mouths to feed at the best regional living completely lean.

Let's put this into prospective. If you make it through your full first year and save all that $200 dollars your first year you would have about a 1.5 months of savings in the event of a furlough.

I would feel bad for the person at C5 making 10 grand less then this or how about Lakes making 15 less.

I yi yi.

All of that's a great example as to why you shouldn't come into this profession if you have a rocky financial foundation.

It doesn't do anything though to indicate that regional pilots make wages that are less than the federal poverty level which certain members seem to claim.

 

[jhugz]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

All of that's a great example as to why you shouldn't come into this profession if you have a rocky financial foundation.

This is a zero debt scenario, add in a little credit card debt and then your back to living off a credit card.

Should only the rich get into flying?

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

Funny, I thought the 50,000 student loan and 13k car note was debt.


BUT ANYWAY --- we're not talking about ALPA or REGIONAL AIRLINES in this thread.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

This is a zero debt scenario, add in a little credit card debt and then your back to living off a credit card.

Should only the rich get into flying?

Once again, my posts were in reference to the notion that regional pilots (so many regionals) are flying under poverty level wages.

Has nothing do with who should get into flying.

But, since you asked. . .

I would suggest that only those who are financially stable enough to go through the career change process, or pay for school, should do it. Not those who require a higher debt to income ratio, nor those who, for various reasons, can not prioritize their financial situation.

People need to realize that somethings just as not for everyone. Somethings are indeed cost prohibitive to purchase. Who is to apologize for that? It is, after all, the free market right? You know, that mythical thing people seem to cling to - that is - until it inhibits their ability to achieve whatever item they wish to have.

Funny, I thought the 50,000 student loan and 13k car note was debt.


BUT ANYWAY --- we're not talking about ALPA or REGIONAL AIRLINES in this thread.

You're right.

I'm talking about the IBTs press release indicating their pilots are making poverty level wages (as indicated, if an FO has 8 or SO has a 6 member family, then fine - they're correct), and the notion that regional pilots (as indicated by MikeD) are also making regional wages. Which, is not correct.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

Wow. I throw in ONE statement in support of regional pilots and my opinion that their severely low pay should be raised......using the comparison to "poverty wages" in a figuratively-speaking manner, and this is the response

Should I change my mind and say the regionals are making great pay and deserve what they're getting? If so, then we can delete about 85% of the posts in the Airline Pilot forum that complain about regional pay, TAs and whether they're good or not, equitable pay for equitable work, the woes of Mesa/Colgan/Mesaba/Pinnacle (fill in the regional blank).

I was figuratively speaking! Don't tase me, bro's!!!

 

[derg]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

1200 hours of pay per year? Man, that's pretty efficient!

 

[jynxyjoe]

Since I haven't posted on a hot button thread in a while here we go:

Surreal is correct that we do not make the Fed definition of poverty level, he has also said a couple times he is not defending the crap pay we get. The reality is, there aren't real federal definitions for what we get paid.

I do know, as a FO at Colgan my first year ($20 an hour no perdiem, raised to $21 an hour a few months in no perdiem) I did make enough/not enough to qualify for state aid food stamps in Maine. I never took the aid because of pride but I know FO's did, and some thought it was hilarious. I left Colgan because of the pay and company culture (of F'ing my buddies), although my pay on a time chart over the 3 years of 121 ops looks like a M rather than a W, I've never been federally poor to my knowledge. I don't know how Great Mistakes guys can live, honestly.

I've found pilots, universally, in this industry gets in thinking they'll make crap wages forever, it's only once there is a threat of them staying professionally stagnate, do they think ahead. Perhaps that lack of forthought is a symtom of being young, but that doesn't explain the +30 and +40 career changers. I hope this challenging time continues for a little while (not real long) and pilots demand more and more change; hard times can be healthy for a group as a whole.

Anyway, Surreal brought up a good point, the arguments by the unions need to be based on facts. Hyperbole is like nails down a chalkboard for many of us.

Jhugz, I don't know what to tell you. Read closer I guess? Not everything is a fight?... no one really cares about uniformed and uneducated opinions to begin with, why interject yours? ALPA is not an all pilot union, also. Trying to pretend that your definition of poverty level is the federal definition is silly. My suspition is, you didn't know what surreal was talking about, in respect to there being a federal definition of poverty.

Side note, we were talking about Amerijet right? Isn't that IBT? What would Jhugz posts about ALPA have anything to do with this thread?

Listening, is different than waiting for your turn to talk. I think Surreal has been more than fair, and giving you way more than an equal share of his attention.

EDIT: Perhaps this is a great example of emotional debates over factual debates. Drama and hyperbole do not sway every listener, it only preaches to the choir. To change minds you have to have more.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Our union is so awesome guys...not only do we make 20k a year we also only got 14 hr duty days. Look at all the work they have done for us. Please excuse me while I hurl. You keep drinking the kool-aide but until we start making a livable wage this union is a joke. UAW are making more then captain to screw a damn lug nut onto a car tire on the assembly line while with great benefits and such. Or how about the teacher's union. Most of us are teachers right? Started as flight instructors. They make more money then us working about half the time with great work rules and better benefits.

When I say our union I use that term figuratively for all pilots. Please trust me I don't want to be associated with it at all.

Hey you chose to work there and joined the union. You new what you were getting before you were hired. If pilots stopped accepting this crap pay in large enough numbers they would have to raise the bar. Unfortunately, there is always a pilot willing to work for less out of the PFT schools.

If you hate the company and union then quit and work someplace better.

I personally think the UAW isn't perfect either. They are an example of what happens when unions become greedy. The UAW is partly to blame for the shape the US Auto industry is in. There needs to be a fine balance between management and the work force. So far it only seems to exist in a handful of airlines. I have worked in both union and non-union shops and can honestly say some of the best benefits and pay I have received were in the non-union shops.

 

[Inverted25]

People need to realize that somethings just as not for everyone. Somethings are indeed cost prohibitive to purchase. Who is to apologize for that? It is, after all, the free market right? You know, that mythical thing people seem to cling to - that is - until it inhibits their ability to achieve whatever item they wish to have.

I agree with that. I sit back and wonder what sane person would go over 100k in debt going to somewhere like Embry when they know that as a regional pilot they won't make enough to justify it. I'm not saying people shouldn't flight train but people need to be realistic and understand not everyone can afford to be a pilot. Complaining that you dont have enough money after you pay your bills is your own fault. You choose to take 50k in debt working a job you knew paid those wages. You have to make educated decisions.

As far as the food stamp thing goes here in Ohio you qualify for WIC and EBT which is our two food assistance programs at any level below 130% of national poverty rate after certain deductions such as shelter costs and child costs. So you can make well over the poverty rate after your deductions and still qualify for food stamps. So saying someone is making below poverty because they qualify for foodstamps is inaccurate.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Amerijet On Strike!

Wow. I throw in ONE statement in support of regional pilots and my opinion that their severely low pay should be raised......using the comparison to "poverty wages" in a figuratively-speaking manner, and this is the response

Should I change my mind and say the regionals are making great pay and deserve what they're getting? If so, then we can delete about 85% of the posts in the Airline Pilot forum that complain about regional pay, TAs and whether they're good or not, equitable pay for equitable work, the woes of Mesa/Colgan/Mesaba/Pinnacle (fill in the regional blank).

I was figuratively speaking! Don't tase me, bro's!!!

I was just trying to put an end to one of the largest fallacies out there.

It does us no good in the trade unionism side of the house if we are telling people lies (IBT press release), then they find out the truth, and then we lose their support.

I'm not asking you to change your mind about the pay being great. That's not my point. My point is it's best that you not spread a fallacy that seems to be a regular statement for many members around here.

Pay isn't great, but pay is not below the poverty level for "so many regionals" as you stated. How was I to know you were speaking figuratively when all you provided was one sentence in response to a quoted statement. To me it seemed like you had already ran the numbers, knew the federal poverty level for the lower 48, AK, and HI, and that you knew which regionals were below those respective levels. I didn't know that so many regional pilots were below the poverty level so I figured I'd check it out while I waited for you to tell me which ones were. Turns out, not many. 1 out of 25 at 2 person family levels, and then 6 out of 3 person family levels - out of 25.

Hey you chose to work there and joined the union. You new what you were getting before you were hired. If pilots stopped accepting this crap pay in large enough numbers they would have to raise the bar. Unfortunately, there is always a pilot willing to work for less out of the PFT schools.

If you hate the company and union then quit and work someplace better.

I personally think the UAW isn't perfect either. They are an example of what happens when unions become greedy. The UAW is partly to blame for the shape the US Auto industry is in. There needs to be a fine balance between management and the work force. So far it only seems to exist in a handful of airlines. I have worked in both union and non-union shops and can honestly say some of the best benefits and pay I have received were in the non-union shops.

All of this, and he isn't even a member of any pilot union.

 

[Trip7]

Excellent post and visual representation Surreal. The facts speak for itself. If people want to starts adding kids, debt etc let them be. They're just recreating their own situation and assuming that every new hire 121 pilot comes in the same way.

And good lord don't argue with jhugz. He's a FA for crying out loud. Never get in a pissing contest with a skunk. You'll never win.....

 

[meyers9163]

Excellent post and visual representation Surreal. The facts speak for itself. If people want to starts adding kids, debt etc let them be. They're just recreating their own faults/mistakes and assuming that every new hire 121 pilot comes in the same way.

And good lord don't argue with jhugz. He's a FA for crying out loud. Never get in a pissing contest with a skunk. You'll never win.....

Did I just read your first paragraph the right way? Just because one has children before they get into the industry is their mistake? I hope that's not what you mean. Flying a jet or plane carrying paxs from point A to point B should be paid a salary enough to raise a family without your spouse having to work. However its not that way. Regardless though the graph posted shows how disgusting it is for an FO. I found a few points in that graph that are incorrect as well, such as PSA being a guarantee of 75 hours when its 72. So I dont know how much faith I hold in other numbers.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Did I just read your first paragraph the right way? Just because one has children before they get into the industry is their mistake? I hope that's not what you mean. Flying a jet or plane carrying paxs from point A to point B should be paid a salary enough to raise a family without your spouse having to work. However its not that way. Regardless though the graph posted shows how disgusting it is for an FO. I found a few points in that graph that are incorrect as well, such as PSA being a guarantee of 75 hours when its 72. So I dont know how much faith I hold in other numbers.

Glad I wasn't the only one that saw that.

 

[Trip7]

Did I just read your first paragraph the right way? Just because one has children before they get into the industry is their mistake? I hope that's not what you mean. Flying a jet or plane carrying paxs from point A to point B should be paid a salary enough to raise a family without your spouse having to work. However its not that way. Regardless though the graph posted shows how disgusting it is for an FO. I found a few points in that graph that are incorrect as well, such as PSA being a guarantee of 75 hours when its 72. So I dont know how much faith I hold in other numbers.

Nope didn't mean it that way haha. "Situation" would be a much better word.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Nope didn't mean it that way haha. "Situation" would be a much better word.

"Blessing" is another one you might try.

 

[Trip7]

"Blessing" is another one you might try.

Blessing would not fit the context of the sentence. I wrote "people can add kids/debt"

 

[surreal1221]

While I'm no mind reader, I think what he (Trip7) is simply saying is that the individual decisions we each make are our own. Because one has a child or a spouse, doesn't mean that they can ignore the realities of the income levels for our profession.

It's not high, and it most certainly is low for a certain segment of our professional group. But, it's not poverty level, except for 1% of airline pilots in this country, those who work at the 6 companies that have 1st year FO pay below the 3 person family poverty level. Take away the extra body, and only one company has pay below the 2 person poverty level.

I found a few points in that graph that are incorrect as well, such as PSA being a guarantee of 75 hours when its 72. So I dont know how much faith I hold in other numbers.

75 for line holders, 72 for Reserves.

I only used line holder figures for each company, that had them publicly listed at APC.

What other points are incorrect?