Will Delta Pilot's strike?

You forgot to mention...too early! A strike if forth coming won't come until a judge grants DL the right to throw out the pilot contract. Again that hasn't or has yet to happen...so kinda chill peeps. Oh and here is this for levity....

"God Save Delta"

(where is that dude these days?)

-Matthew
 
Kristie said:
ok..."herd" is like herding a head of cattle...the other "heard" is what comes into our ears...

all good now? :)

*grammar goon squad with the bat again... hehe

Pretty good for a college student huh?
 
"if we didn't have that act, there wouldn't even be a possibility of striking or unionized representation"

I think we'd still have unions. For example, the truck drivers are teamsters and because they don't come under the RLA, the day their contract expires is the day they can strike if they want. This puts pressure on the company to not use delay tactics they can use with pilot groups working under the RLA. The RLA makes getting to a strike very difficult. It seems like management has figured this out over the years and uses it to put off serious negotiations.

As far as whether ALPA will be legal to strike, I don't think it's been decided for sure yet. Honestly, the way management is acting, I think, they think, they have the answer.
 
I think the ALPA is going to end up using Delta as a example to the other airlines. Either these airlines have to come up with better business plans or the American public just going to have to pay more to fly. You decide
 
hmmm just goes to show that i definately don't know it all - i hear it mostly by 3rd party!
 
Champcar said:
I think the ALPA is going to end up using Delta as a example to the other airlines. Either these airlines have to come up with better business plans or the American public just going to have to pay more to fly. You decide


According to DALPA, the current concession proposal requests far, far more than the business plan calls for. This is why the pilots are ready to strike. The pilots have always been willing to come to the table and act to keep their company alive when the need exits. As now, for example, the pilots are willing to give another $91M. But it is pretty clear that this 1113 filing is union busting...and the pilots are ready to take a stand. Without a contract, the profession will take a huge hit. Just look what JB will pay their 100 seat EMB 190 pilots. The company could move your base 5 times in a year...with no relocation expenses paid. Alter ego companies will bid to do your flying. 4 days off per month...everyone is on call at all other times. Report to the airport within 30 minutes of being called. The quality of life issues of the contract are enormously valuable. Without it...the job will be unfitting of most professionals. I suppose that is an individual assessment. But at Christmas parties, most likely, you will be jealous of your neighbor's accounting job that pays $85K per year with weekend and holidays off. His wife will be home with the kids after school while while yours will pick the kids up at day care after getting off work at 6:30pm (for those wives who choose to work...nothing against you! For those who want to stay at home...there may not be a choice). The list goes on and on. This is why the DL pilots are taking a stand. And once again...if the company needed $325M from the pilots...I'm willing to guess we'd step up to the table and give it. However, this issue does not seem to be centered around the restructuring needs of the company.

I understand the supply and demand arguments that people post here...and that some will fly for the "love of the game". Most professional pilots, however, feel that the responsibilities of the position require a certain level of compensation. If that compensation level cannot be attained...it would be better to walk away from the job instead of denigrating it. That way the value of the career is maintained...and while your company may be out of business...it allows the successful ones to compete while paying respectable wages.


Over the past 5 years the pilots have taken the majority of the blame for the plight of the company. I think most guys have reached their limit...and are tired of the senselessness.
 
Sh*t... I just spent too much time at airliners... I'm having thoughts of going into ATC or business... da*nit...
 
Give it time, the industry will turn, it is very cyclical, survival of the fittest (airlines). We have lost some greats (PAn AM , Eastern) but then new greats emerge. We as pilots must not let them take us down with them, stand our ground and fight to keep our profession alive
 
I guess the only way to help the Delta pilots and us now is to educate people about the current state of the aviation industry. (unless anyone else has ideas)

anyone know when the judge is supposed to make a decision or do these things run out for weeks?

(you got my support DL pilots.. can ALL of ALPA go on strike? probably a dumb question...but a "what if" scenario could they?)
 
Champcar said:
the American public just going to have to pay more to fly.

Getting them to do this should be part of ANY business plan. When even the Wall Street LCC darling, JetBlue, is losing money, it should be abundantly clear to everyone that the current pricing system cannot work.
 
Matthew_Chidester said:
I guess the only way to help the Delta pilots and us now is to educate people about the current state of the aviation industry. (unless anyone else has ideas)

anyone know when the judge is supposed to make a decision or do these things run out for weeks?

(you got my support DL pilots.. can ALL of ALPA go on strike? probably a dumb question...but a "what if" scenario could they?)

This has nothing to do with the American public, this is business between the Company & the Union.
 
tonyw said:
Getting them to do this should be part of ANY business plan. When even the Wall Street LCC darling, JetBlue, is losing money, it should be abundantly clear to everyone that the current pricing system cannot work.

Tony

Pricing is not the problem of the consumer, if I go to the Jetblue website to purchase a rountrip ticket between New York to California and the price is $200, yet, the actual prices is $300, that would not be my problem, or the problem of the consumer....

As for Jetblue losing money, according to Wallstreet, Jetblue could actually turn a profit, it is pretty close, what they did not take into consideration was the increase in investment, with the new aircraft & the huge training center in Florida & the cost involved with that.....
 
Here's the latest

Pilots Run Out of Patience With Pay Cuts
By JOSHUA FREED, AP Business Writer Fri Nov 18, 5:04 PM ET




MINNEAPOLIS - Northwest and Delta pilots have agreed to more than $1.2 billion in pay cuts over the last year and they're willing to give more. But talk of strikes this week from pilots at both bankrupt carriers signaled that they're running out of patience with demands to work for less.
Both carriers have continued flying while they reorganize in bankruptcy court, and a strike could kill them. Delta Air Lines Inc. called a strike a "murder-suicide" that would eliminate every job at the company. It also said a pilots' strike would be illegal.
Finances are precarious at both airlines — giving pilots more power than usual at the bargaining table. But pilots have more to lose, too, because their pensions would be reduced dramatically in a federal bailout if the airlines liquidate.
Mark McClain, chairman of the Northwest Airlines Corp. branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, agreed that pilot strikes at either carrier probably would be a murder-suicide. But that doesn't mean pilots wouldn't do it.
"Is it a real threat? Yes it is," McClain said on Friday.
The tough talk is a shift for both groups. Delta pilots have never struck. Northwest pilots have walked out five times since 1960, including in 1998, when McClain was on the negotiating committee. But more recently, Northwest pilots alone offered concessions while other workers resisted, agreeing to a 15 percent pay cut last year that saved the company $265 million a year. McClain even publicly called on other unions to do the same.
Northwest pilots are especially irked over the carrier's threat to start a subsidiary running smaller jets flown by pilots who would be paid much less than Northwest ALPA pilots.
"We've been championing the cause of saving Northwest Airlines, and management wants to pay us back by outsourcing a third of our jobs," McClain said.
He said pilots are college-educated, highly trained professionals who have already seen their wages rolled back to where they were 30 years ago. Northwest pilots now make between roughly $60,000 to $160,000 per year, the union said. First-year pilots make less, but they've all been laid off.
"Management seems to think that we'll do anything to get to fly airplanes, and that's a serious mistake and assumption on their part."
Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch said the Chapter 11 filing shows that the airline needs the labor cost savings.
Both airlines asked a judge for permission to throw out pilot contracts. Northwest pilots agreed to a temporary 24 percent pay cut to buy more time for negotiations. The extension runs out in mid-January.
A hearing on Delta's request to cancel its pilot contract will resume Nov. 28. The carrier's pilots have threatened to strike if that happens.
Delta pilots took a 32.5 percent pay cut last year, and the company wants another 19 percent now, said Kelly Collins, spokeswoman for the Delta unit of ALPA.
"We're in the mode of self-defense now that the (contract motion) has been filed against us," she said, "and we will use all legal means to defend our contract, and we will not willingly work without a contract."
A Delta spokesman did not immediately return a phone message from The Associated Press.
Legal experts said it's not clear whether the law would allow pilots to strike if their contracts are thrown out. Delta said it would ask a judge to halt a strike.

There have been close calls — most recently when ground workers at United Airlines threatened to strike if a bankruptcy judge threw out their contract. A deal averted a strike there.
"We've come to the brink of it several times in the past, but it's never actually come to fruition," said Neil Bernstein, a law professor who tracks airlines at Washington University in St. Louis.
He said unions have two choices when the airlines threaten to throw out their contracts in bankruptcy court.
"One is to say 'Pretty please don't do it.' The other is to say, 'If you do it you'll be sorry,'" he said. "I don't know a union that's ever said 'Pretty please.'"
Lowell Peterson, a bankruptcy attorney who has worked on airline cases, says he believes such a strike would be legal, though he agreed that it's not a settled question. With bankrupt employers pushing so hard for pay cuts, he predicted more walkouts.
"I wouldn't be surprised to see some strikes. Not because people really want to, but because there's nothing left," he said.
John Budd, a labor relations professor at the University of Minnesota who watches airlines closely, said unions chafe at the airlines' ability to have their contracts thrown out in bankruptcy court. "That goes against everything unions worked toward and everything unions are about, which is negotiating and avoiding the unilateral imposition of terms. The talk about a strike reflects that frustration."
 
I'll dredge this thread up from page seven. The talks are back on. It looks like the judge is showing a bit of objectivity and calling the DAL counsel on the "union busting" type practices. This is going to get interesting.

I'm also wondering what EMB-120's they are going to sell. I heard that we may be dropping to 30 lines in SLC in a month, down from 45 last month!



Delta bankruptcy hearing continues; aircraft sale approved

Lisa Treon
11/29/2005


The Delta Air Lines hearing in the U.S. bankruptcy court continued this week with some harsh words from the judge for both Delta and its counsel.

One issue resolved: Judge Prudence Carter Beatty said she would allow Delta to sell an undisclosed number of aircraft including Boeing 737s, Embraer 120s and Boeing 767s. No information was given on potential buyers or prices. Permission was also given to reject an Atlanta office lease; no details were disclosed.

During the hearing, Beatty covered a wide range of issues surrounding the bankruptcy plan. She said Delta may have been wrong to spend $2.4 billion to buy back its own shares in the years before it filed for bankruptcy in September. "It is a question of if you had that money rather than had spent it that way, you might not be in the position you are in," she said.

On Monday, she said the carrier's motion seeking to void its pilots' contract had the taint of "union busting."

"The issue is whether or not at this time I should permit the rejection of the union contract," Beatty said. "One can talk about union busting and that is precisely what this kind of motion has the taint of..."

Beatty noted that she does not believe the court can enjoin a strike by pilots. "I don't have any jurisdiction of whatever you do," she said.

She also came down hard on Delta lawyer Jack Gallagher. "Frankly, I think you have a bias here," she told Gallagher. "It's a personal bias against the pilots."

Gallagher argued that the airline needed to weigh the pilots' rights against those of its 44,000 other employees. "There is not enough money left in this company to continue to pay these pilots," he said.

Earlier, the pilots' lawyer Bruce Simon grilled the carrier's chief financial officer, Edward Bastian, questioning the numbers in Delta's restructuring plan. "Your projection of your fuel expense is $100 million above what the market tells us today," said Simon, a lawyer for the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents Delta's 6,000 pilots.

Delta's plan for stemming its cash drain next year and regaining positive cash flow in 2007 was finalized in September, reflecting oil prices which peaked shortly after Hurricane Katrina. The plan is based on an estimate of jet fuel priced at $1.73 per gallon in 2006 and 2007. That compares with current market forecasts of $1.69 a gallon, Simon said, adding that each cent of added fuel cost is equivalent to $25 million to $26 million in costs on an annual basis.
 
Chuck- I read somewhere on another forum that the EMB-120's belong to ASA and COMAIR and are parked in some place called Hot Springs, Arkansas? THey haven't been flown for a while. Doesn't make sense but thats what I read somewhere. Doesn't mean its right either.


On another note, this whole aviation career doomed thing reminds me of Lord of the Rings. Just at the last minute when the good side looks doomed, out comes more soldiers and a new alliance is formed.

Could this be? Could this be precedent being set by the DAL pilots? Are they the ones that finally had the cajones to stand up for what they thought was right, instead of caving in like the rest of them. Who else will do the same? Who else will take back what the rest of the pilots of the past 100 years fought so hard to earn?

OK- I'm off the soap box now! Sam wise Gangy the GREAT!
 
It's weird because Delta is supposed to come into LGB in mid December and start doing 3 daily flights from LGB to SLC. I wonder if they still will. I hope so, it would take some of the stress off of our LGB - SLC flights. :) Always full, no matter what day of the week.
 
Delta still owns a lot of the EMB-120's that ASA and Comair used to fly. Supposedly they are just sitting around somewhere. I heard they already sold a few of them to Gulfstream a number of months back.
 
thinning of the industry...

oh and the guy trying to insight a riot earlier has his facts wrong. if delta does go under (god forbid) there really wont be a thinning of the industry. if you believe sooo lets see some proof. The Government Accountability Office has done its homework on related issues this....

http://www.gao.gov/highlights/d05945high.pdf

"While the liquidation of an airline may reduce capacity in the near-term, capacity returns relatively quickly. In individual markets where a dominant carrier significantly reduces operations, other carriers expand capacity to compensate.
operations."

you might get some airline analyst or college professor to try and back up your proof of a thinning of the industry but the facts just arent there. at least not in the long term.

as for whether or not delta should strike... if i was a delta employee ,which i am not, i would try to get a movement together to do anything i could just to show my disgust with management. i would taxi extra slow, delay departure anyway i could,... pilots can be pretty creative. All you have to say once your taxing onto the active is "ooohhh ummm we have an odd indication... could we get resequenced for departure?" ... shooting full approaches, asking to get re-deiced for "safety"... my view on it is if management wants to play dirty... fight back (just keep operating safely). can you be "competitive" with your operating costs skyrocketing? if management is going to learn something ... this is the time. good luck delta pilots
 
sleepy3528 said:
oh and the guy trying to insight a riot earlier has his facts wrong. if delta does go under (god forbid) there really wont be a thinning of the industry. if you believe sooo lets see some proof. The Government Accountability Office has done its homework on related issues this....

http://www.gao.gov/highlights/d05945high.pdf

"While the liquidation of an airline may reduce capacity in the near-term, capacity returns relatively quickly. In individual markets where a dominant carrier significantly reduces operations, other carriers expand capacity to compensate.
operations."

you might get some airline analyst or college professor to try and back up your proof of a thinning of the industry but the facts just arent there. at least not in the long term.

as for whether or not delta should strike... if i was a delta employee ,which i am not, i would try to get a movement together to do anything i could just to show my disgust with management. i would taxi extra slow, delay departure anyway i could,... pilots can be pretty creative. All you have to say once your taxing onto the active is "ooohhh ummm we have an odd indication... could we get resequenced for departure?" ... shooting full approaches, asking to get re-deiced for "safety"... my view on it is if management wants to play dirty... fight back (just keep operating safely). can you be "competitive" with your operating costs skyrocketing? if management is going to learn something ... this is the time. good luck delta pilots
Ok well correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the downsizing of USAir in PIT and PHL allow Southwest to grow thus making a bigger profit?
 
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