Who/What are we going to blame the next one on?

Boris Badenov said:
*shrug*. If I were the PIC on an aircraft that had a jumpseat, the first time I heard a story about the C/A getting cashiered because a jumpseater didn't like what he was doing, I'd just put some yellow tape over the jumpseat for the rest of time. Dangerous road to go down. Sez me, anyway.
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If you start denying people the jumpseat 'just because someone mentioned something to you' I assure you that you will also be getting a call for your unprofessionalism.

By NOT speaking up in the jumpseat you are going down the dangerous road. You are getting the piss test and an interview from the FAA/NTSB if you are on the jumpseat and something happens. Any captain worth the air they breath tells a jumpseater to speak up if they see anything they don't like.
 
Gonzo said:
We are a little over a month away from the "ATP rule" yet I see and hear about the same problems we had with 300 hour pilots in the air. In fact a few CA have told me it is worse with the higher time pilots. So is it going to take another crash for the regional airlines to stop hiring log books and start hiring professional pilots.
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Lots of complacency out there it seems. I was on an RJ jumpseat a while back, and that's the one thing I noticed: The guys up front could fly the heck out of the airplane, but they were very, very lax on checklists and standardization. It actually surprised me quite a bit, as normally people are on their best behavior when there's a jumpseater. These guys just didn't care, and it showed. Pretty disappointing, and I guarantee it had nothing to do with time; I'm sure the 7th year guy in the right seat had more time than I do.

That's something I've found after about 3 years now of the heavy long-haul flying: Since landings are hard to get, and we all are operating with a thin layer of rust at all times, standardization has overall not been a factor. In the short-haul world though, it's a pandemic; it's actually the main reason I volunteered for the safety committee at Cape Air.
 
Seggy said:
If you start denying people the jumpseat 'just because someone mentioned something to you' I assure you that you will also be getting a call for your unprofessionalism.

By NOT speaking up in the jumpseat you are going down the dangerous road. You are getting the piss test and an interview from the FAA/NTSB if you are on the jumpseat and something happens. Any captain worth the air they breath tells a jumpseater to speak up if they see anything they don't like.
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Also, I do enjoy from time to time the "thank GOD you're here!" look I've gotten as an ACM...

dasleben said:
Lots of complacency out there it seems. I was on an RJ jumpseat a while back, and that's the one thing I noticed: The guys up front could fly the heck out of the airplane, but they were very, very lax on checklists and standardization. It actually surprised me quite a bit, as normally people are on their best behavior when there's a jumpseater. These guys just didn't care, and it showed. Pretty disappointing.


That's something I've found after about 3 years now of the heavy long-haul flying: Since landings are hard to get, and we all are operating with a thin layer of rust at all times, standardization has overall not been a factor. In the short-haul world though, it's a pandemic; it's actually the main reason I volunteered for the safety committee at Cape Air.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head. Apathy and complacency are toxic forces, and when you have done the same leg 3 times already that day they can be hard to overcome. (Overcome them you will...otherwise, get outta my seat.)
 
Again, it's up to you how you handle it. I used to fly SWA pilots from MDW to CPS all the time in a rickety, clapped out Mitsi through thunderstorms and all the rest. And I made a point of saying "if you see anything you don't like, tell me". And I think one or two of them even did. That's not the same thing as going to The Authorities (such as they are) after smiling and shaking my hand for a favor done. *shrug*. If you want to live in a surveillance state, there's very little I can do to stop you. Just don't come complaining about "erosion of PIC authority" when they start planning minimum fuel for every leg and telling you that your jumpseater said he'd have flown it with the fuel onboard as they're throwing your stuff in a box and escorting you out the door.

This is how you become a cog. Bit by little tiny bit. IMHO, etc etc.
 
Bumblebee said:
Except as a JS you become a crew member and can have liability for not acting in an apparently dangerous environment. (am I correct on the Derg ?
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You'll be at the "big brown desk" too, at least according to the POI.
 
Let's "extrapolate" a little.

You're a jumpseater on Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701.

Just for craps and grins, you sit on the jumpseat.

Knowing what you know from the NTSB investigation, do you sit there silently or do you convey your reservations as you see the ITT rise and the aircraft performance rapidly deteriorate?

Keep in mind, there's no "there's an emergency coming, you might have to decide to interject" annunciator. Some things happen fast and loud, other ones slowly accrete like clear ice over the situation.

Thoughts?
 
Who's arguing against saying "hey dumbass the engines are overheating and about to lock up"? Certainly I'm not. I'm arguing against accepting a ride from someone who (I'd always thought) owns the seat you'll be sitting in, then eating cheese on him or her for anything but the most egregious of mistakes.

You can call me anything up to and including a reckless, stupid, self-impressed freight cowboy. You can tell me that I shouldn't be licensed to drive a car, let alone fly an airplane. That's between you and me. But if I do you a favor and you make me rugdance not because I broke or bended anything, but because I didn't meet your personal, subjective standard of "how it should be done"? Brother, you are off my Christmas Card list.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I don't want to work in a climate of fear and informants. One thing I know for sure: I know a whole lot less about everything than I used to think I did.
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Screw that. If you are doing things the way they're supposed to be done you have nothing to worry about. If you're in the chief pilots office and can't show them the page of the manual that says you can do what you were doing, you probably deserve to be in there. Flying isn't a dong measuring contest, and if it is for you, you're going to lose anyway.
 
Derg said:
Let's "extrapolate" a little.

You're a jumpseater on Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701.

Just for craps and grins, you sit on the jumpseat.

Knowing what you know from the NTSB investigation, do you sit there silently or do you convey your reservations as you see the ITT rise and the aircraft performance rapidly deteriorate?

Keep in mind, there's no "there's an emergency coming, you might have to decide to interject" annunciator. Some things happen fast and loud, other ones slowly accrete like clear ice over the situation.

Thoughts?
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"What in the (expletives) are you guys doing, precisely?"
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Apathy and complacency are toxic forces, and when you have done the same leg 3 times already that day they can be hard to overcome. (Overcome them you will...otherwise, get outta my seat.)
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Absolutely right, and while I'm certainly no superman behind the yoke, if I could manage to do LNS-BWI-LNS-BWI-LNS-BWI-LNS-BWI-LNS 4 days a week and still brief the approaches to myself (every time), and still do the before takeoff checklist (every time), you can too. :)
 
SeanD said:
It sounds like there are quite a few "wont happen to me" "what are the odds" and "I see others do it" egos going on. Just because we have a relatively good safety record, that is no excuse to ease up on the fundamentals of being safe a pilot.
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Somewhat related. Today on the way to work I was passed in a no passing zone by a guy doing at least 75 (in a 50) over a blind hill. Some people really are that stupid.
 
dasleben said:
Absolutely right, and while I'm certainly no superman behind the yoke, if I could manage to do LNS-BWI-LNS-BWI-LNS-BWI-LNS-BWI-LNS 4 days a week and still brief the approaches to myself (every time), and still do the before takeoff checklist (every time), you can too. :)
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LAX SAN LAX CLD LAX SAN LAX CLD gets the briefing too. Don't want to listen? That's great. But they pay me to put WANT on the CVR.

In the words of a former BroCapt now at U.S. Airways, "It's the Company's plane, and the Company's fuel, so if they want me to say the Gettysburg Address before every takeoff, I'mma just do it."
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Screw that. If you are doing things the way they're supposed to be done you have nothing to worry about.
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If you aren't doing anything wrong, you haf nosing to vorry about! Where have I heard that before?

If you're in the chief pilots office and can't show them the page of the manual that says you can do what you were doing, you probably deserve to be in there. Flying isn't a dong measuring contest, and if it is for you, you're going to lose anyway.
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Seems to me that the measuring is between the guy who is doing the job and the guy who thinks he's doing it wrong. I'm super uninterested in measuring or critiquing other pilots. Which I thought was my point? Now I'm really confused.
 
Derg said:
Godwin's Law! Daaaaaamn! :)
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No fair, Hitler never said that. I know because I have Mein Kampf under my pillow and I'm dangerous.

Seriously, though, how did "mind your own expletive business" become a totalitarian position? You guys are wizards...you should be the Warlords.
 
Boris Badenov said:
No fair, Hitler never said that. I know because I have Mein Kampf under my pillow and I'm dangerous.
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iceman-bite-o.gif
 
Derg said:
Let's "extrapolate" a little.

You're a jumpseater on Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701.

Just for craps and grins, you sit on the jumpseat.

Knowing what you know from the NTSB investigation, do you sit there silently or do you convey your reservations as you see the ITT rise and the aircraft performance rapidly deteriorate?

Keep in mind, there's no "there's an emergency coming, you might have to decide to interject" annunciator. Some things happen fast and loud, other ones slowly accrete like clear ice over the situation.

Thoughts?
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One of the best examples of how it should work is one of my first jumpseat experiences on Delta. Was on an MD-80 from ATL-BWI. They were working to deviate around some storms. As the plane leveled off on a descent one of the thrust levers decided it wanted to stay at idle. The auto throttle pushed the other one up. They were otherwise preoccupied. I, despite never having even touched the controls of a CRJ yet told them "guys, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm pretty sure that isn't right." They fixed it, thanked me, and that was it.

Boris Badenov said:
Who's arguing against saying "hey dumbass the engines are overheating and about to lock up"? Certainly I'm not. I'm arguing against accepting a ride from someone who (I'd always thought) owns the seat you'll be sitting in, then eating cheese on him or her for anything but the most egregious of mistakes.

You can call me anything up to and including a reckless, stupid, self-impressed freight cowboy. You can tell me that I shouldn't be licensed to drive a car, let alone fly an airplane. That's between you and me. But if I do you a favor and you make me rugdance not because I broke or bended anything, but because I didn't meet your personal, subjective standard of "how it should be done"? Brother, you are off my Christmas Card list.
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There's an appropriate response to everything. My experience above, bring it up, it gets addressed, you move on. Same thing as if you're actually part of the crew.

Hypothetical situation. The captain is keeping himself entertained with some reading material on his tablet/laptop. Your'e at 3,000ft turning base. He's GOT to know that's not kosher, he simply doesn't care. And apparently those with whom he has flown with previously don't either. Telling him "hey man, put that away." might fix the problem for you, but only because he knows "this guy doesn't put up with that." But the other, weaker f/os will continue to let it slide.

Pro standards is a great way to address things, especially at a union carrier. It usually results in things being kept away from management and dealt with in a non punitive manner, unless those aren't effective.

What we do is too damn important to let egos get in the way of things.
 
Whose egoes are we talking about, exactly? I must be expressing myself poorly or something, because it seems so simple to me. If I'm a guest in your home, I don't tell you that your little hellspawn are ill-behaved and probably going to wind up in jail or that the cocaine on the nightstand is illegal. I say "thanks for having me" and never come back. Now, if you start waving a gun around and theatening to kill me, yes, I call the cops.
 
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