Who/What are we going to blame the next one on?

OK here's my personal 2c (this and a handgun might get you a car at an intersection...)


well let's go back to the list...shall we? (LOL)

*Zero checklist discipline
*Not briefing anything then looking at me when I say something because they are messing up
*Landing 5K-6K down the runway
*No understanding of how the WX radar works
*Being rude to FAs (They are part of the crew and it gives a clue about how you view you other co-workers)
*Not keeping DX in the loop.
*Being heavy handed on the controls and flying it like you are at an air show
*Having no clue what needs to get done with the crew has to deal with stuff. (Reroute in flight/ground everyone should know want needs to get done one guy shouldn't be doing all the work or having to tell the other guy what needs to be done.


The bolded are more than just personal preference...they are patently unsafe and should not go by unchallenged.
The italicized may show a lack of understanding as well as a lack of clear CRM and could lead to problems...not immediate, so probably best left to them to work out
The unedited portion is personal preference, and while it shows a lack of discipline or commitment to the finer points of professionalism, is merely an annoyance to me.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Whose egoes are we talking about, exactly? I must be expressing myself poorly or something, because it seems so simple to me. If I'm a guest in your home, I don't tell you that your little hellspawn are ill-behaved and probably going to wind up in jail or that the cocaine on the nightstand is illegal. I say "thanks for having me" and never come back. Now, if you start waving a gun around and theatening to kill me, yes, I call the cops.
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Do you have your jumpseater endorsement?
 
I'm really surprised you see those at Eagle. I take them pretty much every single week both ways and they are by far the most professional group I have ever had the pleasure of commuting on. Makes us look like amateurs.
 
Gonzo said:
*Zero checklist discipline
*Not briefing anything then looking at me when I say something because they are messing up
*Landing 5K-6K down the runway
*No understanding of how the WX radar works
*Being rude to FAs (They are part of the crew and it gives a clue about how you view you other co-workers)
*Not keeping DX in the loop.
*Being heavy handed on the controls and flying it like you are at an air show
*Having no clue what needs to get done with the crew has to deal with stuff. (Reroute in flight/ground everyone should know want needs to get done one guy shouldn't be doing all the work or having to tell the other guy what needs to be done.
*Sitting in the jumpseat (Not my airline) going home and there is a ton of WX in the ATL area. ATC tells the plane I am in the Delta 80 30 miles in front split the line by going to SHANE. They pull up SHANE and it has them going through a big cell. I poop you not they look at the radar and the FO said to the CA "ATC said it work for Delta you want to give it a go" Thank god the CA looked at him like he was an idiot and told him hell no, but one day that FO is going to be a CA. The FO had been at the airline for three years all on the jet.
This is just a few of the things I have seen in the last few months.
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I've seen all of these, sometimes more than one situation in a single flight. I had one captain a few months ago who I couldn't believe how incompetent he was. In fact it was so bad I wrote dang near 3 pages about him. I kept it in a word file debating whether or not I should send it to pro-stands. I didn't but now regret that decision.

I am genuinely worried about something happening in an RJ. And from the stories I've heard, and the situations discussed in recurrent classes etc. I'm a little shocked that people can really be that incompetent and/or stupid. I have NOT seen any similar situation EVER on a mainline aircraft. I'm sure things happen but those guys seem to take their jobs, and their lives more seriously.
 
juxtapilot said:
I've seen all of these, sometimes more than one situation in a single flight. I had once captain a few months ago who I couldn't believe how incompetent he was. In fact it was so bad I wrote dang near 3 pages about him. I kept it in a word file debating whether or not I should send it to pro-stands. I didn't but now regret that decision.

I am genuinely worried about something happening in an RJ. And from the stories I've heard, and the situations discussed in recurrent classes etc. I'm a little shocked that people can really be that incompetent and/or stupid. I have NOT seen any similar situation EVER on a mainline aircraft. I'm sure things happen but those guys seem to take their jobs, and their lives more seriously.
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juxtapilot! Text me your phone number. I have three in the addressbook.
 
juxtapilot said:
I've seen all of these, sometimes more than one situation in a single flight. I had one captain a few months ago who I couldn't believe how incompetent he was. In fact it was so bad I wrote dang near 3 pages about him. I kept it in a word file debating whether or not I should send it to pro-stands. I didn't but now regret that decision.

I am genuinely worried about something happening in an RJ. And from the stories I've heard, and the situations discussed in recurrent classes etc. I'm a little shocked that people can really be that incompetent and/or stupid. I have NOT seen any similar situation EVER on a mainline aircraft. I'm sure things happen but those guys seem to take their jobs, and their lives more seriously.
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You really should send it. If it took up 3 pages, its important.
 
juxtapilot said:
I've seen all of these, sometimes more than one situation in a single flight. I had one captain a few months ago who I couldn't believe how incompetent he was. In fact it was so bad I wrote dang near 3 pages about him. I kept it in a word file debating whether or not I should send it to pro-stands. I didn't but now regret that decision.

I am genuinely worried about something happening in an RJ. And from the stories I've heard, and the situations discussed in recurrent classes etc. I'm a little shocked that people can really be that incompetent and/or stupid. I have NOT seen any similar situation EVER on a mainline aircraft. I'm sure things happen but those guys seem to take their jobs, and their lives more seriously.
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"Is this 'bout dem uppity co-pilots tryin' to ursurp mah authoritah?"

"Yes. Yes, Your Airworthiness. That's exactly it."

:eek:
 
Derg said:
Let's "extrapolate" a little.

You're a jumpseater on Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701.

Just for craps and grins, you sit on the jumpseat.

Knowing what you know from the NTSB investigation, do you sit there silently or do you convey your reservations as you see the ITT rise and the aircraft performance rapidly deteriorate?

Keep in mind, there's no "there's an emergency coming, you might have to decide to interject" annunciator. Some things happen fast and loud, other ones slowly accrete like clear ice over the situation.

Thoughts?
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I think you've gotta speak up if you notice it. I feel pretty terrible about the time that I didn't, several years ago.

Honestly, I sat there and watched the FO nearly torch himself with a crossing restriction on a mainline flight to the ATL. It wasn't my finest hour, but the crew had made it very clear early on that the lowly RJ pilot wasn't to speak, so I didn't. The CA and FO were engrossed in a conversation, and I watched as the TOD came and went. Finally, the CA said, "hey, are we going to make DIRTY?" Asses and elbows, then ATC gave them a short vector for "spacing," but I think it was to save them from missing the restriction.

They never asked if I saw them approaching the TOD, and I never said a word. I should've spoken up, even to a couple of jerks who didn't like RJ guys.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I think you've gotta speak up if you notice it. I feel pretty terrible about the time that I didn't, several years ago.

Honestly, I sat there and watched the FO nearly torch himself with a crossing restriction on a mainline flight to the ATL. It wasn't my finest hour, but the crew had made it very clear early on that the lowly RJ pilot wasn't to speak, so I didn't. The CA and FO were engrossed in a conversation, and I watched as the TOD came and went. Finally, the CA said, "hey, are we going to make DIRTY?" Asses and elbows, then ATC gave them a short vector for "spacing," but I think it was to save them from missing the restriction.

They never asked if I saw them approaching the TOD, and I never said a word. I should've spoken up, even to a couple of jerks who didn't like RJ guys.
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classic toxic cockpit...
 
I got the opinion that some of my former co-workers were of the mindset that it was cool not to follow the rules and make it up as you go along. Not all of them were like that, but there were some. One former CP described it best. He said it was "The Dude Airline." It was a pretty good description. There was nothing life-threatening, but it was very hard as an FO flying with a guy for the first time. As a Captain, I just didn't put up with lack of standardization. It might have made me un-cool, but I sure as Hell wasn't going to risk my career or life just to be able to sit at the cool kids table at lunch.

The greatest thing I've found about the new job is that standardization is the way things are. Everyone does things the same. It doesn't matter who I fly with, everything is done the same way from start to finish. It's normal. I enjoy that. I enjoy not having to learn 1000+ plus procedures. The nicest thing about it is that all fleets are standardized. Sure procedures are different from aircraft to aircraft, but the overall big picture is the same. Of course all of that will be changing soon.

As far as speaking up on the jumpseat, I always asked the jumpseater to speak up. I appreciated the extra set of eyes. I had to do it once on an SWA jumpseat. We were out over the Gulf, getting ready to hold going into FLL due to storms. It was in a -300 with round dials. We were headed to the holding fix as the crew was preparing to divert (over an hour+ EFCs). I looked up and saw we were still in heading mode. The crew thanked me profusely.
 
This brings up a question, let's say you're a revenue passenger who is a private but no commercial pilot, but you you're riding in the back revenue and something happens that scares the living crap out of you. Lets say you watch an MD-80 fly what with just your measly 200 hours you realize is a very unstable approach. Then you watch the jet float down 1/3 of the runway and get so alarmed as the 2,000 foot marker flashes past you seriously think you're about to be in an accident. The plane swerves left and right and you take the last exit still doing 45-50knots with the spoilers up and reversers blaring. You then realize not just you, but many passengers who know nothing of flying are also very nervous and looking around at others reactions and making comments about the landing. You check the METAR and the plane landed in a strong tailwind. Given the 4.5 hour delay and how many times the crew mentioned they would get you to point B ASAP so they could get home to point A faster, you figure the crew may have not done things in the safest manner. Is there something you can do about that?
 
ChasenSFO said:
This brings up a question, let's say you're a revenue passenger who is a private but no commercial pilot, but you you're riding in the back revenue and something happens that scares the living crap out of you. Lets say you watch an MD-80 fly what with just your measly 200 hours you realize is a very unstable approach. Then you watch the jet float down 1/3 of the runway and get so alarmed as the 2,000 foot marker flashes past you seriously think you're about to be in an accident. The plane swerves left and right and you take the last exit still doing 45-50knots with the spoilers up and reversers blaring. You then realize not just you, but many passengers who know nothing of flying are also very nervous and looking around at others reactions and making comments about the landing. You check the METAR and the plane landed in a strong tailwind. Given the 4.5 hour delay, you figure the crew may have not done things in the safest manner. Is there something you can do about that?
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You can call the FAA safety hotline. Many an ASAP sits for a few weeks waiting to see if a hotline complaint comes floating down to match up with it.

A lot of hotline complaints are "we almost had a midair. I saw the plane right out my window" types.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
You can call the FAA safety hotline. Many an ASAP sits for a few weeks waiting to see if a hotline complaint comes floating down to match up with it.

A lot of hotline complaints are "we almost had a midair. I saw the plane right out my window" types.
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I'll give it a shot, though honestly I'd imagine they'd disregard it with nothing to back it up. Still, I'd hate to keep my mouth shut and see that company put a plane in the dirt. Quite a scare the other night.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Whose egoes are we talking about, exactly? I must be expressing myself poorly or something, because it seems so simple to me. If I'm a guest in your home, I don't tell you that your little hellspawn are ill-behaved and probably going to wind up in jail or that the cocaine on the nightstand is illegal. I say "thanks for having me" and never come back. Now, if you start waving a gun around and theatening to kill me, yes, I call the cops.
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It's not your home. You may be responsible for the aircraft, but you ain't paying the note on it, and somebody else tells you how to operate it. Further, the Fourth Amendment doesn't exactly apply to a jumpseater informing a crew that they're acting like idiots.

When you're in somebody else's employ, you do what they say, and don't be pissed when somebody reminds you of that.
 
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