Who/What are we going to blame the next one on?

[Hacker15e]

This brings up a question, let's say you're a revenue passenger who is a private but no commercial pilot, but you you're riding in the back revenue and something happens that scares the living crap out of you

The list of reasons why that private pilot passenger might have no idea what the reasons are for the things he/she saw is endless. MIGHT they have a valid point that there was something unsafe going on? Sure. Might they also be adding up 1+1 and getting 7? Very possible, IMO.

Let's remember that despite the saying, perception is actually not reality. Just because this passenger saw events as a spectator and perceived them to be one way does not mean that is actually what happened. The passenger view out the side window, with no SA on comm, traffic, weather/winds, aircraft performance, aircraft-specific procedures, company-specific procedures, etc, means that they have an incredibly small view of events and an uninformed prism through which they viewed them. Therefore not only could their perception/understanding of what happened be off base (sometimes significantly), but there's just no way for that person to make an informed conclusion about why it happened.

It would be different if this passenger were a pilot rated in the aircraft in which he was riding...even more different if he worked at the company he was riding on; the knowledge level would be different. But even then he would still be blind to what was happening at 12 o'clock (literally and figuratively) and probably wouldn't have enough overall awareness to make an educated opinion about what was happening up front.

To be blunt, I'd say to that guy sit the hell down and let the professionals in front of the cockpit door get him to his destination safely, then go on with his life. I think an ASRS report as a non-crewmember would just be ridiculously out of his lane.

 

[GypsyPilot]

The list of reasons why that private pilot passenger might have no idea what the reasons are for the things he/she saw is endless. MIGHT they have a valid point that there was something unsafe going on? Sure. Might they also be adding up 1+1 and getting 7? Very possible, IMO.

Let's remember that despite the saying, perception is actually not reality. Just because this passenger saw events as a spectator and perceived them to be one way does not mean that is actually what happened. The passenger view out the side window, with no SA on comm, traffic, weather/winds, aircraft performance, aircraft-specific procedures, company-specific procedures, etc, means that they have an incredibly small view of events and an uninformed prism through which they viewed them. Therefore not only could their perception/understanding of what happened be off base (sometimes significantly), but there's just no way for that person to make an informed conclusion about why it happened.

It would be different if this passenger were a pilot rated in the aircraft in which he was riding...even more different if he worked at the company he was riding on; the knowledge level would be different. But even then he would still be blind to what was happening at 12 o'clock (literally and figuratively) and probably wouldn't have enough overall awareness to make an educated opinion about what was happening up front.

To be blunt, I'd say to that guy sit the hell down and let the professionals in front of the cockpit door get him to his destination safely, then go on with his life. I think an ASRS report as a non-crewmember would just be ridiculously out of his lane.

Well said. Visions of the private pilot passenger ratting out an airline crew for not doing a run up come to mind.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I think you've gotta speak up if you notice it. I feel pretty terrible about the time that I didn't, several years ago.

Honestly, I sat there and watched the FO nearly torch himself with a crossing restriction on a mainline flight to the ATL. It wasn't my finest hour, but the crew had made it very clear early on that the lowly RJ pilot wasn't to speak, so I didn't. The CA and FO were engrossed in a conversation, and I watched as the TOD came and went. Finally, the CA said, "hey, are we going to make DIRTY?" Asses and elbows, then ATC gave them a short vector for "spacing," but I think it was to save them from missing the restriction.

They never asked if I saw them approaching the TOD, and I never said a word. I should've spoken up, even to a couple of jerks who didn't like RJ guys.

I've been very well treated on average by mainline pilots. Some have been total jerks too busy complaining about the bankruptcy (AA), but most viewed me as an asset, not an additional pain in the ass.

And (rarely) I do get to speak up. Fresh off IOE at Eagle, I was coming home on a 777 jumpseat to LAX, and helped those guys not get a 'deal' at KONZL. "Cool, dude."

It's not your home. You may be responsible for the aircraft, but you ain't paying the note on it, and somebody else tells you how to operate it. Further, the Fourth Amendment doesn't exactly apply to a jumpseater informing a crew that they're acting like idiots.

When you're in somebody else's employ, you do what they say, and don't be pissed when somebody reminds you of that.

Everything I say, everything I do, is recorded. I also assume that there's at least ONE spotter sitting out there on the end of the 24s or 25s at LAX taking pictures or video, so if someone balls it up, it'll be on A.net before the regional chief knows about it.

As much of a privacy advocate as I am, it just doesn't translate well to flying the airplane.

You can call the FAA safety hotline. Many an ASAP sits for a few weeks waiting to see if a hotline complaint comes floating down to match up with it.

A lot of hotline complaints are "we almost had a midair. I saw the plane right out my window" types.

Every day. Every day in San Francisco. "Follow the Virgin, don't pass."

 

[derg]

Well said. Visions of the private pilot passenger ratting out an airline crew for not doing a run up come to mind.

It happens all the time.

But any airline worth it's salt is going to recognize this. My present employer is largely too large to "Hey come in the office, you've gotta read this! HA!" with the letters, but at my last company I've been written up for:

a. Not doing a proper GUMP check -- mixtures never went "full rich" on approach. (BE-1900)
b. Standing in the "arc" of the propeller during boarding
c. Various alarms being ignored (Radar altitude alerter during an ILS approach into DSM)
d. Continuing to start an engine during some sort of alarm (the PT6's igniters tended to make a loud squelch during engine starts -- WAH! WAH! WAH! WAH! WAHWAHWAHWAH!)
e. Arguing (still trying to figure this one out)

Largely, most of that was from my companies "open door" policy because closing the cockpit door was seen as "rude".

Another guy I know had a passenger plug-in his own headset without permission at 1C and wrote a long missive to the chief pilot about one of the pilots singing, telling jokes and talking about personal information when he should have been flying the airplane. Surprisingly, they actually got called into the office.

 

[cmill]

It happens all the time.

But any airline worth it's salt is going to recognize this. My present employer is largely too large to "Hey come in the office, you've gotta read this! HA!" with the letters, but at my last company I've been written up for:

a. Not doing a proper GUMP check -- mixtures never went "full rich" on approach. (BE-1900)
b. Standing in the "arc" of the propeller during boarding
c. Various alarms being ignored (Radar altitude alerter during an ILS approach into DSM)
d. Continuing to start an engine during some sort of alarm (the PT6's igniters tended to make a loud squelch during engine starts -- WAH! WAH! WAH! WAH! WAHWAHWAHWAH!)
e. Arguing (still trying to figure this one out)

Largely, most of that was from my companies "open door" policy because closing the cockpit door was seen as "rude".

Another guy I know had a passenger plug-in his own headset without permission at 1C and wrote a long missive to the chief pilot about one of the pilots singing, telling jokes and talking about personal information when he should have been flying the airplane. Surprisingly, they actually got called into the office.

You would think that some weekend warrior would be more apt to question things on a small aircraft that they're accustomed to rather than a larger plane that they know nothing about, but from what I've seen thats rarely the case.

I've flown quite a few pilots, some of them have told me they're a pilot, and some of them you can just tell. One guy never said anything, but he had that classic instructor pose with his right hand opened up on his knee like he was ready to take the yolk.

The only nasty gram any of our pilots ever got was from the head of the Exxon aviation department. He apparently didn't like being told he would find out what the weather was like when we get there.

 

[derg]

You would think that some weekend warrior would be more apt to question things on a small aircraft that they're accustomed to rather than a larger plane that they know nothing about, but from what I've seen thats rarely the case.

I've flown quite a few pilots, some of them have told me they're a pilot, and some of them you can just tell. One guy never said anything, but he had that classic instructor pose with his right hand opened up on his knee like he was ready to take the yolk.

The only nasty gram any of our pilots ever got was from the head of the Exxon aviation department. He apparently didn't like being told he would find out what the weather was like when we get there.

"How's the weather?"

"It don't hardly matter. We still goin' anyway!"

 

[derg]

Well, the funny part is that when I look at weather, I just look at things like legality, precip, wind extremes and sky condition. So if you ask me, as a passenger, what the weather is like -- I really don't know unless I "interpret" it for John Q Public.

I'm sure he doesn't want to hear 2000RVR, moderate rime reported at 3000 feet 350 at 25 gusting 40 light mist.

"Uhh, cloudy, windy and cold.... Who do you think I am? Derrrrrrrrrrrrg Tyler with yo' Accuweather forecast! And here's a cat video."

 

[desertdog71]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh we're experiencing some head winds....giggity.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Autothrust Blue]

"Uhh, cloudy, windy and cold.... Who do you think I am? Derrrrrrrrrrrrg Tyler with yo' Accuweather forecast! And here's a cat video."

Thanks, Ollie!

"It is a...not so beautiful day for an airplane ride..."

 

[cmill]

"How's the weather?"

"It don't hardly matter. We still goin' anyway!"

For the times when the weather is obviously terrible, its usually "Can we make it?" I've found the best answer is "How bad do you want to get there?" I've always gotten an honest answer. It's either its not that important, it can wait, or I absolutely positively have to be there right now, we're losing 100k an hour. If its the latter I just let them know its not going to be pretty.

Theres the rare occasion where it's just not possible due to landing conditions, and sometimes they get pissed, but they usually calm down when I explain that I can land, but they're going to be swimming the rest of the way after the plane flips over.

 

[TWP]

Hmmmm, regionals created to lower employee pay, therefor regionals don't have very high hiring standards because they would have to pay more, hmmmmmmmmm.

Since the public likes cheap tickets and largely doesn't know that when they get on a Delta connection flight they are not in fact getting a Delta crew/Major airline experience level, it will take pilots to solve this problem. Since pilots will almost literally bend over to fly a shiny tube it isn't going to change.

Grow some balls and quit taking 20k a year flying jobs. Force companies to pay a professional wage and watch hiring standards go up.

 

[desertdog71]

Grow some balls and quit taking 20k a year flying jobs. Force companies to pay a professional wage and watch hiring standards go up.

These calls always come from those who have already grabbed ankle.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[drunkenbeagle]

This brings up a question, let's say you're a revenue passenger who is a private but no commercial pilot, but you you're riding in the back revenue and something happens that scares the living crap out of you. Lets say you watch an MD-80 fly what with just your measly 200 hours you realize is a very unstable approach. Then you watch the jet float down 1/3 of the runway and get so alarmed as the 2,000 foot marker flashes past you seriously think you're about to be in an accident. The plane swerves left and right and you take the last exit still doing 45-50knots with the spoilers up and reversers blaring. You then realize not just you, but many passengers who know nothing of flying are also very nervous and looking around at others reactions and making comments about the landing. You check the METAR and the plane landed in a strong tailwind. Given the 4.5 hour delay and how many times the crew mentioned they would get you to point B ASAP so they could get home to point A faster, you figure the crew may have not done things in the safest manner. Is there something you can do about that?

Trying to be the SkyPolice isn't going to change much, especially sitting in back in an aircraft you aren't rated in, without the benefit of knowing whats going on or why. In the GA world, your time is far better spent teaching students to do things by the book and not be an idiot - that lasts a lifetime.

 

[JustinS]

For all the professional airline pilots with loads of experience in here, what seems to be the reason there is more infusion of pilots with poor CRM, ADM, integrity, and professionalism tainting the cockpits these days?? It's interesting to read pages about how CA Suzy Q and FO John Doe can't do their job properly and it's becoming a more common trend. No one seems to identify why this is. So I'm just curious. Is this a generational issue? The 1500 hour rule doesn't seem like it's going to curb this issue you guys are seeing. So I'm curious where you think it's coming from.

 

[derg]

I think it's a little generational and a lot of lack of mentoring.

 

[derg]

Thanks, Ollie!

"It is a...not so beautiful day for an airplane ride..."

"But it's a beautiful day for pork belly nachos, next up, Samantha Guthrie and the bi-polar chef after we take a commercial break."

 

[juxtapilot]

For all the professional airline pilots with loads of experience in here, what seems to be the reason there is more infusion of pilots with poor CRM, ADM, integrity, and professionalism tainting the cockpits these days?? It's interesting to read pages about how CA Suzy Q and FO John Doe can't do their job properly and it's becoming a more common trend. No one seems to identify why this is. So I'm just curious. Is this a generational issue? The 1500 hour rule doesn't seem like it's going to curb this issue you guys are seeing. So I'm curious where you think it's coming from.

It's totally a generation issue-maybe better yet, say it's an attitude issue. Just the fact that they are at a regional makes their attitude completely different than someone at a major. I think there is a pretty high percentage of RJ pilots living up to profile we're discussing. What I'm worried about is that they'll be hired at majors soon and this "attitude" will start infecting the major airlines. I would hope I'm wrong and that the majors would have some sort of mentorship or no B.S. policy where the newb FO decides that it would be "uncool" to brief a departure, and the captain would say, WTF is wrong with you, here at Delta/United/Southwest we brief stuff, and fly the plane like the company wants. If these pilots are getting hired at majors it won't be too long before were discussing this attitude/professionalism issue at the majors level.

 

[TWP]

These calls always come from those who have already grabbed ankle.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

haha. I prefer to put my hands flat on the floor so they recognize my "work ethic".

 

[SeanD]

It's totally a generation issue-maybe better yet, say it's an attitude issue. Just the fact that they are at a regional makes their attitude completely different than someone at a major. I think there is a pretty high percentage of RJ pilots living up to profile we're discussing. What I'm worried about is that they'll be hired at majors soon and this "attitude" will start infecting the major airlines. I would hope I'm wrong and that the majors would have some sort of mentorship or no B.S. policy where the newb FO decides that it would be "uncool" to brief a departure, and the captain would say, WTF is wrong with you, here at Delta/United/Southwest we brief stuff, and fly the plane like the company wants. If these pilots are getting hired at majors it won't be too long before were discussing this attitude/professionalism issue at the majors level.

I would hope an airline like Delta would catch that attitude during their psych evaluation. Perhaps the other legacies might want to look into a similar approach when interviewing. Is Delta the only one who does it?

 

[derg]

I would hope an airline like Delta would catch that attitude during their psych evaluation. Perhaps the other legacies might want to look into a similar approach when interviewing. Is Delta the only one who does it?

I am a huge believer in the psych evaluation.