Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
I hate to say it, but when it comes to money and bargaining, pilots are dumb.
Virgin America pilot payraise
- Thread starter Cherokee_Cruiser
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amorris311
Well-Known Member
Why do you hate saying it? It's true! You got hired to be a pilot not a professional negotiator. Now I understand why ALPA has pilots be the negotiators with a slew of attorneys sitting right behind them, but I think we should have professional negotiators and pilot input.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Well, I hate to say it because we'd like to think we're of above-average intelligence, and capable of more than just guiding heaps of aluminum around in the sky. I would also like to think that I know what's best for me when it comes to work rules and compensation and the like, but the answer to that is also "well, not always."
Some of us (most of us, in fact) have other talents, but very few of us are lawyers (or even proto-lawyers) and still fewer are labor negotiators. I can read and largely understand, and apply my work rules but as far as their larger implications are concerned (cost to the Company especially) I'm not the right guy to ask.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Obviously ALPA didn't give us any help in the negotiations because they made an horrible precedent for other carriers to try and follow. Although our operation was more unique than other carriers it doesn't warrant being raped because of it.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
Exactly, that's why there should be pilot input. Professional negotiators see all the aspects and can find loopholes that we seem to overstep. There isn't going to be a perfect fix I know that, but pilots need to take a step back. This adds to the overstepping your job description. I know people want to help a s make the company more efficient and that might help for the short term but degrades the reliability in the long term. Case in point would be southwest, I used to always see crew members going above and beyond. Now you see them show up do their thing and split. Granted, I'm sure there are the special few who throw bags and stock catering carts but they are definitely the minority.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
I need specifics. Island air got the shaft ill agree with you on that. How was it ALPA's fault and not your managements?
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I forgot who was in the pilot meetings for ALPA but he said that we should bid real low to beat out Ornstein and that way everyones jobs will be saved. I was one of only 3 people to vote no on the contract. The day the contract passed was the day I put in my two weeks. There is no reason to fly an airplane in 'paradise' for less than $20K
amorris311
Well-Known Member
Well that's another reason why we should have professional negotiators in my opinion. I'm sorry your elected reps felt that was the proper course of action. I wasn't there and was dealing with similar issues at another carrier so I feel your pain. I can see your frustration with ALPA but I ask you to look deeper and ask why your management couldn't make your airline work with industry standard wages and work rules. ALPA is the perfect scapegoat and many just say its ALPA's fault without delving into the specifics. Management is the one that negotiates rates with its mainline partners. If they low ball it and can't pay for the operation then they have failed. Unfortunately, they seem to do what every other management group does and blame labor. Yes we "labor" are expensive but so is the cost of doing business. You must spend money in order to make money.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your last carrier. I hope in the future if you come back to the airlines and they are a union shop you get involved in some fashion. It is a great way to see how the organizations work and its a good way to get a true sense of what is going on. There is nothing more troubling then hearing fifteen different versions of the truth once you get out on the line. Think Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Before this mess we did have the worlds worst CEO who sold off our airplanes and spare parts to either buy them back at a higher rate or leaseback
Also, refleeting with an aircraft that had to be added to the certificate and making new hire pilots write the manuals was another big problem. We already had a superior aircraft in the Q on the type but they went to the cheaper old AA ATRs to save initial costs. Now the aircraft they bought can't operate out of one of our most profitable routes. That was of no fault of ALPAs the problem I saw with ALPA was saying that we need to lower our costs by concessions to attract the billionaire buyer and our life would be grand after.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
Yea and you know that is a recipe for disaster. Everyone is unique in their outlook and I appreciate that but the writing is on the wall when ultimatums like that start popping up.Before this mess we did have the worlds worst CEO who sold off our airplanes and spare parts to either buy them back at a higher rate or leaseback
That was of no fault of ALPAs the problem I saw with ALPA was saying that we need to lower our costs by concessions to attract the billionaire buyer and our life would be grand after.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
amorris, you should know better than trotting out the classic "we need professional negotiators" line. We DO have professional negotiators. They're called Contract Administrators, and they're there for every negotiation. And if you want them to be the spokesman at the table and actually do the negotiating, they're perfectly happy to do so. But pilots just don't ever ask them to, because pilots always want to be running the show. And to be honest, it's probably better to have the pilots be the leads at the table. But you need a smart NC that doesn't do much talking a the table, and does a hell of a lot of talking back in the caucus room with counsel.
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
I'm not sure whose interests would be served by having pilots "step back", but I feel pretty safe in saying that it would not be the pilots'.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
The FMS is getting to his head.......
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I think my MEC Chairman threatened to kill me or kill himself to avoid having to listen to me about daily during caucus conversations. Good times.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Did you know . . . in that FMS and that airplane . . . that a frequency, for example, 135.70Mhz, is simply entered as "3-5-7" in the scratchpad and plopped right into the active freq, thereby moving the previous frequency automatically into standby?
FACT of the day . . .
amorris311
Well-Known Member
I think you're saying what I'm saying just in a different way. You have sat through enough negotiations to know that pilots can make some dumb statements and look out for only a certain group. Maybe I'm jaded but I've seen it on several occasions. As a matter of fact seggy has too and that is the only reason I want professionals and not emotionally charged pilots.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
It's not the fms. It's the stupid rams horn.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
If emotionally charged statements are being made at the table, you picked the wrong negotiators. Pilots aren't always emotionally charged. You just have to pick wisely when electing the NC.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Negotiations, especially once the NMB gets involved, can be very theatrical. There are times where making an emotionally charged statement may server your purpose, but it has to be calculated and controlled. I've got a story for NJC along those lines.
