V1, Rotate- and the jet won't. You're the FO..

ATN_Pilot said:
Yep, same thing here at the Tran. I agree with your assessment. I've been doing RIC standups for the past couple of months, and when we do FLEX takeoffs there, there is very little runway left at V1. I have zero doubt that trying to switch controls right before V1 to execute an abort would be disastrous. But apparently us FOs, who have all been captains before, aren't qualified enough to execute an abort. :)
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At my carrier, either pilot can CALL the Abort, but the CA still executes it. If the CA already on the controls, there's no transfer of control, just announcement of the maneuver. Simple, right? Just like a go-around.
 
Firebird2XC said:
At my carrier, either pilot can CALL the Abort, but the CA still executes it. If the CA already on the controls, there's no transfer of control, just announcement of the maneuver. Simple, right? Just like a go-around.
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FO can't execute the abort, if he's on the controls on takeoff?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Crazy, isn't it? It's only a matter of time until a bunch of people die because of this, and then the FAA will step in and fix it.
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Maybe...maybe not.

Last time I was down for training I heard the FAA wanted to let f/os land on a monitored approach if it happens to be their leg. The theory being its probably a good idea to have your first landing below 4000RVR with somebody next to you who has done it before.

But that hasn't happened yet.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
FOs don't execute a go-around at your company?
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I think I didn't state that very well. Either pilot can call the go-around, regardless of who's flying. If the CA calls it and the FO is flying, the FO flies the GA. And vice-versa.

MikeD said:
FO can't execute the abort, if he's on the controls on takeoff?
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Sort of. Up until V1, the CA has their hand on the thrust levers. Either pilot calls the abort, the CA retards the thrust levers and opens the reverses, while both pilots apply max braking. Through 80 knots, the CA takes steering control back. It's a joint maneuver, if anything. Assuming the Pilot Monitoring doesn't just sit there with a bead of drool rolling down his or her chin, anyhow.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Sort of. Up until V1, the CA has their hand on the thrust levers. Either pilot calls the abort, the CA retards the thrust levers and opens the reverses, while both pilots apply max braking. Through 80 knots, the CA takes steering control back. It's a joint maneuver, if anything. Assuming the Pilot Monitoring doesn't just sit there with a bead of drool rolling down his or her chin, anyhow.
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How about in your example in the first post.....some kind of control issue, decision to abort past V1 is made, and thousands of feet of runway left........FO doing the takeoff and FO with hands on throttles since it's post V1? Does FO do everything on the abort until it's time to take steering back?
 
MikeD said:
How about in your example in the first post.....some kind of control issue, decision to abort past V1 is made, and thousands of feet of runway left........FO doing the takeoff and FO with hands on throttles since it's post V1? Does FO do everything on the abort until it's time to take steering back?
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Your hand won't go back on the thrust levers until you've got to reduce power for a level off. In this plane, climb thrust is set by pressing a button, not moving the thrust levers back. I've had straight climbs to altitude where I won't touch them until I have to bring the power back in cruise.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Maybe...maybe not.

Last time I was down for training I heard the FAA wanted to let f/os land on a monitored approach if it happens to be their leg. The theory being its probably a good idea to have your first landing below 4000RVR with somebody next to you who has done it before.

But that hasn't happened yet.
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FOs can't land below 4000RVR?
 
I'm not sure its such a great idea for the PF to have his hand on the thrust levers and or trying to accurately push them to the bugs / takeoff setting. The way we used to do it is PF would advance the power levels to "about" what is right, then take his/her hand off the power levels. The PM would then fine tune the power setting to what is appropriate for the takeoff, and then he/she too would take hands off power levers. On a call of abort, abort, abort the PF would reach up and bring the power levels to idle / reverse.
 
Gonzo said:
FOs can't land below 4000RVR?
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Nope. Anything below 4000RVR has to be a monitored approach which is always flown by the f/o until the captain calls visual and lands. Agree with the monitored part, but again, I'd rather have experience doing landings below 4000 RVR before I'm in the left seat and flying with someone else who hasn't done one either.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
I'm not sure its such a great idea for the PF to have his hand on the thrust levers and or trying to accurately push them to the bugs / takeoff setting. The way we used to do it is PF would advance the power levels to "about" what is right, then take his/her hand off the power levels. The PM would then fine tune the power setting to what is appropriate for the takeoff, and then he/she too would take hands off power levers. On a call of abort, abort, abort the PF would reach up and bring the power levels to idle / reverse.
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That's what we do except that if it's the f/o flying, captain fine tunes and leaves his hand on it. If its his leg the f/o fine tunes, then moves his hand so that the captain can take them back until v1
 
Autothrust Blue said:
We don't include that on our EMB briefing cards. We probably should.
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We don't have it on the Dash at C5. That is, after V1 we'll only abort if the airplane is unflyable. I think it's a very wise thing to include in the brief.

One of the things that I fear the most in the airplane is having a front row seat to my own death because the controls are jammed/unresponsive to normal inputs and not being able to do a damn thing. It's the kind of thing you wake up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night for. Very scary stuff.
 
MikeD said:
Isn't it that way nearly everywhere? Any crew cockpit Ive ever known, anyone can call an abort, anyone can call a go-around or missed; and it's performed, then sorted out why later, if not right then and there.
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This is also not the case at SouthernJets, or at least that's how it was last time the old man and I talked about it.

The decision to reject a takeoff rests solely with the Captain, for some rationale fairly well spelled out in the FCTM.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
The decision to reject a takeoff rests solely with the Captain, for some rationale fairly well spelled out in the FCTM.
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Would be interesting to know what the rationale is behind that method of op. Probably not something that can be publically stated, I figure.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Barreling down the runway with no one having their hands on the throttles? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
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Yes... actually, it has been so long since I've flown in a multi-crew airplane I didn't remember correctly. After the throttles are fine-tuned, the PF places his hands back on them until the V1 call, when he then removes his hands. The CFMs were the same, or rather as much the same as possible between the Dash (which I flew) and the jets... the dash doesn't really have a very long take off roll, and it seemed like about the time the throttles were adjusted you had enough time to tap the throttles before the PM called V1.

I think it was to reinforce after V1 you should rotate, which is an interesting policy because this thread is based on the premise that that isn't always a great idea.

I imagine if you have autothrottles or a FADEC and you can just shove the power up without really looking at the engine gauges too terribly much it isn't all that much of an issue. And also it became a game between legs to see who could have the most accurate initial "push", so you got good at it.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Yes... actually, it has been so long since I've flown in a multi-crew airplane I didn't remember correctly. After the throttles are fine-tuned, the PF places his hands back on them until the V1 call, when he then removes his hands.
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Ok, that sounds much better. :) That's what we did when I first started at Pinnacle, and I think it's the safest procedure.
 
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