V1, Rotate- and the jet won't. You're the FO..

Had a Saab one day feel like it wasn't going to come off the ground for me in MLU, FFOD. I yanked it back a little more to test it, came off fine, but it was the weirdest feeling I've ever had. What was even dumber was after the flight the bag count was correct, the W+B was correct, and the pax were seated where they were suppose to be. Guess I didn't have my Wheaties that morning.

After discussing it with the FO later, he remembers me just making a weird grumble and looking at the airspeed and power funny while pulling back- to me it seemed longer- and very little runway was chewed up while I retrimmed and yanked her off. Once the nose started up it started feeling like an airplane.
 
ppragman said:
You're telling me you'll allow an airplane to fly with a potentially damaged control surface because it'll probably fly? Sorry, but probably ain't good enough for me. If the yoke doesn't rotate me, and the trim and flaps are set right, and the speeds are good - which is why we make an "80kts" call, or whatever your company has - then we're going to abort the takeoff - even after V1. V1 is predicated on the airplane being able to fly. If the airplane isn't fly-able then we're not going flying. I'd rather go off the end at 30kts then go try to fly an airplane without elevator control. You don't know why the elevator isn't operable, it could be jammed there could be a mis-rig, or it could be something worse that you can't anticipate. Something as simple as the trim being rigged backwards could render the airplane virtually uncontrollable in the first 50' as you try to figure out what the hell is going on. No, if the airplane doesn't respond to rotate, and everything else is good, we're gonna abort.

Consider this: this is going to be an easy abort, you're mostly likely going to have max reverse, max braking and anti-skid. While you're playing test-pilot with the airplane at this point, I'd rather play test pilot on the ground then play test pilot in the air. With an engine failure, its no-brainer, the airplane has been tested, you know it will continue to fly after V1. With a faulty control surface, you don't know what the hell will happen or if the airplane will be controllable after rotation.
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Lol, that question we are answering is so vague you have no idea if Jtrain is thinking the same thing you are man. in other words, TL;DR!

Thought you alaska guys were the strong silent type?
 
jynxyjoe said:
Lol, that question we are answering is so vague you have no idea if Jtrain is thinking the same thing you are man. in other words, TL;DR!

Thought you alaska guys were the strong silent type?
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Nah, not me, I'm a jabber-box unfortunately. Sides' I ain't an Alaska boy anymore, time's be a changing.

Irregardless - if the aeromachine won't rotate I ain't flying.
 
ppragman said:
Nah, not me, I'm a jabber-box unfortunately. Sides' I ain't an Alaska boy anymore, time's be a changing.

Irregardless - if the aeromachine won't rotate I ain't flying.
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Shoot, fly a stupid Mooney, they don't rotate they wheelbarrel into the sky!
 
I used to run this scenario in the simulator with pilots in the Lear 45. Jammed elevator at 5 knots below V1, no matter what the pilots do, the yoke wont move. Not necessarily a right or wrong way to react, either abort above V1 or pull the elevator disconnect and go flying. There were a few cases of the aircraft going airborne due to speed and trim and resulting in a pitch up to stall and a red screen shortly thereafter. There are a few scenarios in which an abort above V1 may be prudent. This may be one of them. I would prefer to go off the end of a runway at 20-30 knots than impact the earth inverted with jammed flight controls at 200 knots. I compare the scenario to one where an aircraft strikes a large bird which takes the wingtip off or another vehicle/aircraft on the ground roll..V1 or not..we probably will abort.
 
Firebird2XC said:
A hypothetical situation...

"After V1, we treat it as an in-flight emergency. All else as previously briefed.."

13,000 foot dry runway. Optimal conditions with a close to full load.

You're cleared to go, you accelerate to V1. 'Rotate' is called- but the plane won't.

The Captain is on the controls. You have burned 3000 feet of runway, and the signs say you have 9000 feet remaining. Rather than abort, the Captain begins to retrim the airplane and pull back on the yoke to try and get the airplane off the ground.

You're the FO. What do you do?
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If the plane doesn't want to fly, it doesn't want to fly, and I don't care to try and figure it out while zipping down the runway at 100 kts. Call abort and close the thrust levers.
 
Blip16 said:
what is step 4?
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I was going to say step 4: check torque gauge / Ng gauge (or whatever jet equivilant is) to make sure you have max power, but I thought that it might be too much looking, and honestly I would have aborted either way at that point.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
1) Cross check airspeed on captain side's airspeed indicator first.
2) Check flaps set for take off.
3) Check elevator trim position to make sure it is in take off range.
5) If airspeed, flaps and trim are correct and the airplane still isn't behaving like an airplane and I still have what I think is a safe accellerate stop distance I will call for a rejected take off (abort, abort, abort.)

That may not be exactly what was briefed, but first and formost you should flexible and responsive incase things change. If you were going down the runway, you hit V1 and the wing falls off I don't think it is appropriate for you to continue pulling back on the yoke and trying to get the airplane in the air simply because you are going faster than V1. There is obviously something wrong with either the power output or the aerodynamic characteristic of the airplane. I'm not sure trying to force it into the air is the safest thing you can do, unless youre positive you're going run off the end of the runway.
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The specific airplane that OP flies has a gust lock that must be properly released, and free/full travel elevator movement verified, before trying to use the elevator.

I seem to remember that this actually did happen in an EMB 145/135 with a less than 13,000-foot runway, resulting in said Embreeair Jungle Jet going off the end. Thus the AD regarding checking elevator movement—every...single...time...

Stuff happens. If you have the concrete to stop and the airplane is unairworthy (and flight control malfunctions are certainly something that make you unairworthy), I'd rather use the full length of 35L-17R to stop and maybe blow some tires than try to struggle around in very congested airspace and possibly bend the airplane pretty severely on landing. Between 80 and V1, aborts are done for engine fire, engine failure, or fear that the airplane can't fly—but above V1, if it won't fly and you have the room to stop, stop!

Gonzo said:
Yup, I think it is one of the dumbest things to come out of the school house.
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Apparently that's from the Federales. They want us to delay flap extension so as to not get frozen contamination up in the flap tracks. (Or so a check airman told me so it MUST be right. I think it's pretty dumb myself. Put them down after the salute, I think.)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
The specific airplane that OP flies has a gust lock that must be properly released, and free/full travel elevator movement verified, before trying to use the elevator.

I seem to remember that this actually did happen in an EMB 145/135 with a less than 13,000-foot runway, resulting in said Embreeair Jungle Jet going off the end. Thus the AD regarding checking elevator movement—every...single...time...

Stuff happens. If you have the concrete to stop and the airplane is unairworthy (and flight control malfunctions are certainly something that make you unairworthy), I'd rather use the full length of 35L-17R to stop and maybe blow some tires than try to struggle around in very congested airspace and possibly bend the airplane pretty severely on landing. Between 80 and V1, aborts are done for engine fire, engine failure, or fear that the airplane can't fly—but above V1, if it won't fly and you have the room to stop, stop!


Apparently that's from the Federales. They want us to delay flap extension so as to not get frozen contamination up in the flap tracks. (Or so a check airman told me so it MUST be right. I think it's pretty dumb myself. Put them down after the salute, I think.)
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In the flap track? Jeebus isn't that why they have to stupid flap canoes there?
 
Seems pretty simple to me. The plane won't rotate so your options are run off the runway and die or abort.
 
Well, depends on the airplane. In the 717 (or any DC9 series airplane), the elevator can split, so if one side of the elevator jams, then if you keep pulling hard on the yoke, then the torque tube that connects the two yokes will shear and you'll still be able to fly with the other half of the elevator. So, I'd first try pulling really hard to see if that works. If not, then I'm calling abort.
 
I know that we always say that we can't abort after V1, but CHQ proved that you can. Now, I don't know how fast they were moving when they finally pulled the power back and jumped on the brakes, but the rumor I've heard is that they were doing something like V2+15, so what's that mean? 150-160? They were lucky that their elevator decided to stop working on a long runway at JFK, but with enough runway you can get any aircraft stopped from any speed.

The problem is that you don't have the engineering data for it, so you're going to be a test pilot. But with 6,000' of runway in front of you, there's almost no reason that you won't be able to stop an EMB-145. We can take this thing from 135 knots when we land to a full stop in under 2,500' at many weights (and that's without TR's being factored into the equation), so you should be able to get the thing stopped, or at least into the EMAS at a reasonable speed.

So it's not a matter of die in the air or die on the ground. Are you going to die in the air if you manage to get the thing airborne with trim? Not, not likely. We fly this thing with trim anyway and as folks have said, you can disconnect the elevator panels once you're up in the air. If that doesn't fix the problem? You can still problem land with trim.

As for dying on the ground because you ran off the end of the runway, again, it's not likely unless you're in Asheville. Say you're even on a shorter runway, say 7,000'. You take the first 3,000' of runway to get to V1/VR (same speed in this plane), you take the next 1,000' to crap your pants, and the last 3,000' to stomp on the brakes and bring out the buckets and, again, without anybody knowing what the engineering data would say, you'll likely get stopped on the runway.

Are you going to have soiled pants and an evac because your brakes are on fire? Of course you are, but unless you're on a 6,000' runway with a cliff on the other end I can't simply assume you're in for it no matter what.
 
It's funny...people say, "That aircraft wasn't tested to decelerate and stop past V1....You're a TEST PILOT if you decide to stop!" Well guess what, last time I checked my aircraft wasn't designed to fly with a junk elevator....Taking a plane that was supposed to rotate at V1 and isn't airborne, may be a risky proposition as well.

- If you stop on the runway you're a cowboy hero....
- If you go off the end trying to stop you're a dead cowboy.....
- If you go airborne and ball it up, the obituary will read, "he did what he was trained to do"
- If you go airborne and land, well you've got to go buy some new underwear.
 
jtrain609 said:
I know that we always say that we can't abort after V1, but CHQ proved that you can.
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Oh I think this thread proves we don't always say that. Cut after V1 due to control malfunction has always been a par to of me brief for as far back as I can remember and I've never heard any flak because of it. However, I get the feeling when I drone on no one is listening so --- hello? Hello? You all already tuned out? I quit. :)
 
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