V1, Rotate- and the jet won't. You're the FO..

Microburst? Elevator disconnect past 3000ft rwy, mx wrench lodged? Something tells me those seatbelt extensions were a bad idea...

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Autothrust Blue said:
I still think about our gust lock from time to time between Vr and positive rate.
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good to think about........as these guys can attest:

An accident that applies very much to the situation in this very thread......

As I wrote in the analysis section:

"....... had an efficient takeoff abort been initiated in a more timely manner at the first sign of something being awry with the flight controls, it's entirely probable that the aircraft would've been successfully stopped on the 4300' runway at best, and into the overrun at worst. The fact that the crew attempted to diagnose or figure out a flight control problem while accelerating down an already-tight runway, severely lessened their chances for a successful outcome other than what they had. With any flight control malfunction, the chances of taking a sick aircraft airborne successfully, versus excuting a timely and efficient abort successfully, are fully dependant on a number of factors and variables......."

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/when-a-long-roll-leads-to-a-short-demise.119067/#post-1646729
 
nocturnalaviator said:
Ah yes! How did I miss mentioning that. Checklist dammit!

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Even when I've done the checklist...and I always, always do the checklist, and I follow the AD full travel check (full up, full down, full up) to the letter. Can't see the elevator from the front office; no position indicators or F/CTL page to watch it actually follow the yoke.

Tldr: Elevators are serious business.
 
If the plane won't fly, there really isn't a choice to make. ESPECIALLY on a long long runway.

Risk management, look at the worst case outcome for the two possible actions and decide which sucks the least.

1) Attempt to continue with a possibly unflyable airplane, go off the end at a very high rate of speed.

2) Abort, possibly roll off the end at a much lower rate of speed.

Final decision obviously rests with the captain, but as an F/O you need to lobby for your choice. The reason we brief takeoffs the way we do is because you don't have time to make decisions on the roll. Which is why as part of the brief, you need to bring up things that maybe haven't been mentioned.

At my job, the f/o is the one that briefs the takeoff so that the captain can concentrate on taxiing. I always end mine with "any questions?" or "do you have anything to add?" Partially to make sure I didn't miss anything, but also to see if they are paying attention. Especially at busy airports things can get kind of busy and I get the feeling I'm briefing to myself.

As an aside, my company has "CRJ standard abort criteria" which include "after v1 we will only abort of the plane is unflyable."
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Announcing it as Control Jam, not "it won't rotate" will prob. get the captain to abort immeadiatly. Just saying it's not rotating introduces variables, and makes him want to check. Trust me, if the FO yells Controlls jammed, i'm going max brake, max reverse. I'm not even going to touch the yoke to find out.

In the 1900, If i recall memory items were to attempt to overcome the jam, if unable abort. fwiw.
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That's the way to do it. I've had one high speed abort and I didn't even know why until we had pulled off the runway and the aborted takeoff immediate action items/QRH were complete.
 
Firebird2XC said:
You're half right. At my carrier, an abort can be called by either pilot during the takeoff roll.
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Isn't it that way nearly everywhere? Any crew cockpit Ive ever known, anyone can call an abort, anyone can call a go-around or missed; and it's performed, then sorted out why later, if not right then and there.
 
MikeD said:
Wow. Thats indeed interesting.
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Yep, same thing here. Only the captain calls an abort. I can state a problem, make a suggestion, etc., but the decision to abort is his. At Pinnacle, either pilot could call the abort. For the first few years I was there, the FO even held the thrust levers during the takeoff roll and executed the abort himself.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yep, same thing here. Only the captain calls an abort. I can state a problem, make a suggestion, etc., but the decision to abort is his. At Pinnacle, either pilot could call the abort. For the first few years I was there, the FO even held the thrust levers during the takeoff roll and executed the abort himself.
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Here we take our hands off the thrust levers after setting the takeoff thrust and the captain places their hand on them until V1. My biggest problem with that is that I think that in the case of a high speed abort, that is a horrible time to switch controls. It eats up valuable runway and increases the chances of loss of control in my opinion.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yeah, I work for Eastern Air Lines, the Next Generation. We aren't nearly so enlightened. :)
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MikeD said:
Isn't it that way nearly everywhere? Any crew cockpit Ive ever known, anyone can call an abort, anyone can call a go-around or missed; and it's performed, then sorted out why later, if not right then and there.
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At Colgan, the brief was "recommend abort, CA's decision, CA's maneuver".

Being able to err on the side of caution *could* be universal, but it's not.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Here we take our hands off the thrust levers after setting the takeoff thrust and the captain places their hand on them until V1. My biggest problem with that is that I think that in the case of a high speed abort, that is a horrible time to switch controls. It eats up valuable runway and increases the chances of loss of control in my opinion.
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Yep, same thing here at the Tran. I agree with your assessment. I've been doing RIC standups for the past couple of months, and when we do FLEX takeoffs there, there is very little runway left at V1. I have zero doubt that trying to switch controls right before V1 to execute an abort would be disastrous. But apparently us FOs, who have all been captains before, aren't qualified enough to execute an abort. :)
 
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