UPS A300 down at Birmingham AL

Screaming_Emu said:
During recurrent our ground instructor was saying that with the new rest rules we'll have to sign a piece of paper that says "we aren't fatigued and are fit for duty" before every flight. Not sure if that's true, but nothing would surprise me.
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WTF, seriously? Might as well require pilots to take home a permission slip for their parents to sign before a 4 day. What would happen if you didnt sign it? "Oh yeah? They want more rest? Ha, we'll show them" :p
 
Screaming_Emu said:
During recurrent our ground instructor was saying that with the new rest rules we'll have to sign a piece of paper that says "we aren't fatigued and are fit for duty" before every flight. Not sure if that's true, but nothing would surprise me.
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Joint responsibility.

No pilot may accept and no certificate holder may assign.

I dig it.
 
SeanD said:
WTF, seriously? Might as well require pilots to take home a permission slip for their parents to sign before a 4 day. What would happen if you didnt sign it? "Oh yeah? They want more rest? Ha, we'll show them" :p
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Actually, it would make a lot of sense. SkyWest is about to implement a SMS program that will do doubt include the new rest rules. I would not be surprised at all if crew members are required to fill in some variables prior to starting each trip.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Actually, it would make a lot of sense. SkyWest is about to implement a SMS program that will do doubt include the new rest rules. I would not be surprised at all if crew members are required to fill in some variables prior to starting each trip.
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EMB 120 crew members are seeing dual-signature manifests. Your signature as FO means that you're rested/not fatigued at the start of the flight.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Wow, really? When did they start doing that?
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If you're EM2, you obviously don't read your FOIBs. If you're CRJ, I'm sorry. ;)

Just recently. The signature isn't required until the new rules are effective, but I do it anyway. It makes me slow down and read the manifest more carefully too, so it's a net win.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
If you're EM2, you obviously don't read your FOIBs. If you're CRJ, I'm sorry. ;)

Just recently. The signature isn't required until the new rules are effective, but I do it anyway. It makes me slow down and read the manifest more carefully too, so it's a net win.
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I'm a former bro guy, but it's been awhile. Nothing about it on the CRJ, but FOs are required to review the mx signoffs. Thanks for the info though.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I'm a former bro guy, but it's been awhile. Nothing about it on the CRJ, but FOs are required to review the mx signoffs. Thanks for the info though.
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I seem to remember there's something about ACARS initialization on the CRJ sufficing, just like, well, everything else on the CRJ is done through ACARS initialization. Your manual manifest books should see the signature/employee number blocks soon, though, for the two times a year you have to do a manual manifest.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
EMB 120 crew members are seeing dual-signature manifests. Your signature as FO means that you're rested/not fatigued at the start of the flight.
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May I ask what the penalty is on your end if you call fatigued before a flight? Say, even at the start of a trip? Many times in my life I have made every attempt to sleep enough and had a restless night or things beyond my control that led to less sleep. I'm concerned airlines will put this required signature in but still penalize pilots for making the right choice. That won't fix a thing.
 
Dan208B said:
May I ask what the penalty is on your end if you call fatigued before a flight? Say, even at the start of a trip? Many times in my life I have made every attempt to sleep enough and had a restless night or things beyond my control that led to less sleep. I'm concerned airlines will put this required signature in but still penalize pilots for making the right choice. That won't fix a thing.
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No penalty at all, but you may or not be paid for the trip if the company decides you had enough rest.
 
Dan208B said:
May I ask what the penalty is on your end if you call fatigued before a flight? Say, even at the start of a trip? Many times in my life I have made every attempt to sleep enough and had a restless night or things beyond my control that led to less sleep. I'm concerned airlines will put this required signature in but still penalize pilots for making the right choice. That won't fix a thing.
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Crew Support's marching orders are to immediately remove any pilot who's unfit for duty - be it fatigued or sick, if you call in and utter those words you won't be going. Whether or not you are paid is a function of a committee that reads and evaluates fatigue reports and determines who is responsible for your being fatigued.

We'll see. I'm pretty sure what happened a few weeks ago wasn't my fault in any way or form, but I had well in excess of the FAR-mandated rest, so they might just go "yeah, whatever."

Dan208B said:
The problem in that regard is that many pilots (particularly FOs on first or second year pay) will see the possibility of losing pay as a "penalty."
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It is a financial disincentive, but I don't make decisions in or about the operation of the airplane with my wallet. A wallet with a lot of paper in it still won't cushion a sudden meeting of granite and metal.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
It is a financial disincentive, but I don't make decisions in or about the operation of the airplane with my wallet. A wallet with a lot of paper in it still won't cushion a sudden meeting of granite and metal.
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You and I are in complete agreement on this. Unfortunately I have met people who wouldn't be...
 
UAL747400 said:
I've heard not eating for 6 hours before the time you want to go to sleep is one way to nudge it. I'm not a doctor though, so that might be non-sense.
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I'm all for being professional and getting the rest I am required to get. That's why I cringe when I see all these pictures from the Airline types, whilst on their RON, out and about being tourists. I'm also not against having to "sack up" and make it through a tough assignment. As a way of life, it isn't sustainable. There are some people who think they function better at night but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the vast majority of those folks are just as impaired as the rest of us mere mortals.
 
Dugie8 said:
I'm all for being professional and getting the rest I am required to get. That's why I cringe when I see all these pictures from the Airline types, whilst on their RON, out and about being tourists. I'm also not against having to "sack up" and make it through a tough assignment. As a way of life, it isn't sustainable. There are some people who think they function better at night but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the vast majority of those folks are just as impaired as the rest of us mere mortals.
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If you have 19 hours, being a tourist is fine.

If you have 8 hours, examine the backs of your eyelids.
 
Dan208B said:
May I ask what the penalty is on your end if you call fatigued before a flight? Say, even at the start of a trip? Many times in my life I have made every attempt to sleep enough and had a restless night or things beyond my control that led to less sleep. I'm concerned airlines will put this required signature in but still penalize pilots for making the right choice. That won't fix a thing.
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Risk management worksheets haave been standard practice in USAF units for over a decade now. Although their utility is questionable. I remember one flight one night in the A-10. The sheet worked on a point system, if your point totals came up above (at the time) 15 or so, it required you to be taken off the mission. Mine came to something like 17. The supervisor reviewed it and said "17? What can we omit here to make it an even 15 so you can fly; we dont have a backup pilot tonight and need the sorties." :)
 
Bumblebee said:
I think I remember exactly what you're bringing up here...and this is hard to deal with, which is why we want 8 behind the door.
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As one who did ProStandards, I'm taken aback by what you are saying here. 8 hours behind the door is great if it matches your circadian rhythm, but if the company wants you 8 hours behind the doors from 8AM to 4PM and then fly 16 hours, you will be fatigued. The science backs that up.


I must say though that the problems generally relate to people not taking it seriously and coming to work tired already or not thinking long range about the trip they are on.
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Once again I am really surprised to be hearing this from a Pro Standards Rep. At Colgan, after the accident, close to 95% of the fatigue calls were the companies fault. The demographics between Colgan and Skywest weren't that different.

It's not easy, but you have to forego all else other than flying and rest on those schedules that you mention. Then only add what you can, remembering your priorities. It may be less fun, but it's more safe.
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That is true for about 5% of the fatigue calls, but science takes over the other 95% of the time.
 
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