UPS A300 down at Birmingham AL

DE727UPS said:
The job I signed up for was the job my union bargained for. I'll do what's in the contract to include fatigue calls if necessary. Even management has lower expectations that some of you. I read this site and I fear for the career. Knock yerself out. Thank gawd I'm about done....
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Just need to do some freight flying before hopping to a regional. You learn real quick how fatigue can harm you. I know I scared myself several times at night flying on the backside of the clock. Good or bad weather I made mistakes I likely wouldn't have made during the day.
 
Dugie8 said:
You don't think that is a little, well, "short sighted"? Your CR isn't something you just move around with a nap or two. I work a 9 day schedule. 3 days, 3 nights, 3 off. How do I flop my CR in 24 hours or less?
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I've heard not eating for 6 hours before the time you want to go to sleep is one way to nudge it. I'm not a doctor though, so that might be non-sense.
 
Maurus said:
Just need to do some freight flying before hopping to a regional. You learn real quick how fatigue can harm you. I know I scared myself several times at night flying on the backside of the clock. Good or bad weather I made mistakes I likely wouldn't have made during the day.
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This.
 
Maurus said:
Just need to do some freight flying before hopping to a regional. You learn real quick how fatigue can harm you. I know I scared myself several times at night flying on the backside of the clock. Good or bad weather I made mistakes I likely wouldn't have made during the day.
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Not sure what you're saying... Are you actually suggesting that pilots at regionals aren't exposed to fatigue inducing schedules? Lol, funniest thing I've seen here in a LONG time!
 
Bumblebee said:
I would think so, I flew many night missions over Afghanistan in the middle of the night...heck it doesn't matter what time of day it is, you need to be disciplined with your sleep schedule. Once your circadian rhythms are set you should be fine. The problem is when they move you around in your clock.
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You mean like alternating morning and evening shifts.

Or a CDO after a 4 day.

Or getting in at 0200 with a 1500 report, and get poor sleep at the layover hotel.

(Hell, that's just the last two weeks worth of sleep related butt hurt.)
 
Maurus said:
Just need to do some freight flying before hopping to a regional. You learn real quick how fatigue can harm you. I know I scared myself several times at night flying on the backside of the clock. Good or bad weather I made mistakes I likely wouldn't have made during the day.
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Uh...right. See above.
 
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Autothrust Blue said:
You mean like alternating morning and evening shifts.

Or a CDO after a 4 day.

Or getting in at 0200 with a 1500 report, and get poor sleep at the layover hotel.

(Hell, that's just the last two weeks worth of sleep related butt hurt.)
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I think I remember exactly what you're bringing up here...and this is hard to deal with, which is why we want 8 behind the door. I must say though that the problems generally relate to people not taking it seriously and coming to work tired already or not thinking long range about the trip they are on. I've been on those overnights where, instead of getting in, going to the room, they hang out late, and then complain about the schedule, when they could have used all available time to recuperate for the shifting clock. There were many times I would say ok that's enough for me, so that two days later I was fresh. I also have stayed out because I am probably more used to an around the clock schedule from my adult life as a musician with a day job where I have had to carefully plan my rest. Especially when I was a firefighter and had a gig on a one day off, and then get slammed with calls.

It's not easy, but you have to forego all else other than flying and rest on those schedules that you mention. Then only add what you can, remembering your priorities. It may be less fun, but it's more safe.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Have they let you set foot in your shiny jet yet?
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I have about as much time in a "shiny jet" as you do hauling boxes, or flying sick passengers where you duty on at 9pm, and you don't duty off until 10am, then fly home pt. 91 and don't technically duty off until about 2pm the next day.

I've worked one side, and came to this side for a better schedule. Seems to be a popular decision because of the schedule.
 
Bumblebee said:
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It's not easy, but you have to forego all else other than flying and rest on those schedules that you mention. Then only add what you can, remembering your priorities. It may be less fun, but it's more safe.
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...and back here on planet earth where people have lives, families and obligations outside of work that don't care what your work schedule is, perhaps we could focus on creating more reasonable schedules and the fact that fatigue happens even despite our best efforts to prevent it. We're humans, not robots.

But why try and solve the problem when you can blame the peons for being irresponsible and working when tired?
 
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mshunter said:
I have about as much time in a "shiny jet" as you do hauling boxes, or flying sick passengers where you duty on at 9pm, and you don't duty off until 10am, then fly home pt. 91 and don't technically duty off until about 2pm the next day.

I've worked one side, and came to this side for a better schedule. Seems to be a popular decision because of the schedule.
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Sure.

But you're misapprehending the point. Fatigue is fatigue and it is everywhere. Despite regulatory attempts (14 CFR 117—oh wait, 121 cargo's exempted from that - disregard) to prevent it I am confident that it's going to remain the biggest threat to people who fly for a living - whether they're mostly daytime passenger drivers or single pilot 747 on floats guys, or anything in the middle. I'll freely admit that the type and kind of operation can put you at a larger risk of fatigue. Scheduled operations tend to run, er, on schedule, but that doesn't mean there's no fatigue risk. Quite the opposite. Merely having a schedule doesn't mean that it's realistic, or that a human operator can safely accomplish it. Having a schedule doesn't prevent outside stressors from adversely effecting your performance. Having a schedule doesn't make you immune to irregular operations. Having a schedule doesn't make you immune to "Sometimes, you just can't sleep."

On demand 135, like you described, is the Circadian wild west.

etflies said:
But why try and solve the problem when you can blame the peons for being irresponsible and working when tired?
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Control what you can and PLEASE punch out when you're fatigued, regardless of the cause. The alternative is not worth it.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
They tried that at a lot of the 121 regionals until pilots started growing a pair and telling them to go pound sand with that foolishness. Fatigue is fatigue and if you agree to it, then you are every bit as liable.
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During recurrent our ground instructor was saying that with the new rest rules we'll have to sign a piece of paper that says "we aren't fatigued and are fit for duty" before every flight. Not sure if that's true, but nothing would surprise me.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
During recurrent our ground instructor was saying that with the new rest rules we'll have to sign a piece of paper that says "we aren't fatigued and are fit for duty" before every flight. Not sure if that's true, but nothing would surprise me.
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That's standard practice in the USAF.

Worst we'd ever get would be a 24hr on-call, and if you were flying daylight before that, inevitably you'd be alerted at 4pm for a 7pm takeoff and fly a full 16-hour mission through the dawn. That happened almost daily, and it was really dangerous.
 
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