UPS A300 down at Birmingham AL

From a different discipline, you don't. You can adjust to steady, regular shifts with personal and iron clad discipline. A constantly rotating schedule is brutal in any line of work. It can be deadly in some.
 
They pay me a lot, but they don't pay me enough to live like a bat. This is what you are suggesting Dale. Because I signed up for the job I should live my life back side of the clock for 30 years? Does anybody do that?

Think of the mental health issues of living your life for 30 years on the opposite side of the clock from the rest of the world. You'd go nuts in six months. Circadian rhythm issues exist because people are....human.

There are scientific ways to mitigate fatigue. The new rest rules were a step in the right direction but, sadly, big money bought a cargo cutout. My union is suing the FAA. I hope we win.
 
DE727UPS said:
They pay me a lot, but they don't pay me enough to live like a bat. This is what you are suggesting Dale. Because I signed up for the job I should live my life back side of the clock for 30 years? Does anybody do that?

Think of the mental health issues of living your life for 30 years on the opposite side of the clock from the rest of the world. You'd go nuts in six months. Circadian rhythm issues exist because people are....human.

There are scientific ways to mitigate fatigue. The new rest rules were a step in the right direction but, sadly, big money bought a cargo cutout. My union is suing the FAA. I hope we win.
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As a completely random, non-scientific but directly experiential statement: I and many in my industry are nocturnal by nature. My absolute most normal schedule... the one that has me well rested, happy and feeling good ... is ~13-14:00 - 06-07:00.

Waking up at 07:00 every morning runs the risk of turning me into a zombie.

So .. these things aren't absolutes.

~Fox
 
Bumblebee said:
Personal/professional responsibility...you took the gig, now live up to the expectation. I don't know, maybe I'm being harsh, but not as harsh as the ground coming through your windshield.

(None of this is directed particularly towards this event, merely speaking about fatigue and our responsibility as professionals to mitigate that threat.)

and anything other than that is not living up to the responsibility.
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That's all well and good until you get an AM 4 day followed by a stand up the day after your 4 day then 2 days off and then a PM trip, then back to AM flying the next trip. Nobody can adjust their body/CR to a schedule like that, and nobody in their right mind bids for crap like that but when you don't have the seniority for something more consistent what do you expect?

Its easy to tout responsibility until you consider the reality of some schedules. Heaven forbid a pilot have a life outside of work anyway.
 
Baronman said:
Is it even realistically possible for night freight pilots to not be fatigued?
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According to the science, darned near everyone is fatigued at 0-dark-30. (not to include those who regularly awake at that time from a good night's sleep).
 
Constant rotating sked here

Start one shift at 1630 for example Monday, finish Thursday at 0700 total of 36 hours worked
 
DE727UPS said:
The job I signed up for was the job my union bargained for. I'll do what's in the contract to include fatigue calls if necessary. Even management has lower expectations that some of you. I read this site and I fear for the career. Knock yerself out. Thank gawd I'm about done....
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Ooooooookkkkk.
 
pullup said:
If that's the job you signed up for, then yes.
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But that's not the expectation and everyone knows it.

If you're implying what I think you're implying then the freight companies would be desperate for pilots instead of requiring 5 internal recs plus a personal reference from the pope. Most of the world lives and works under the sun. Therefore, it would be entirely unreasonable to assume that a cargo pilot is going to be awake from 2300-0800 on his/her days off. It's not possible and it doesn't even account for the massive time zone changes an international cargo pilot has to endure.

I'm all about professional standards and honesty, but to imply that because freight pilots do x amount of flying on the back side of the clock and therefore should live their personal lives at those hours is absurd.
 
DE727UPS said:
They pay me a lot, but they don't pay me enough to live like a bat. This is what you are suggesting Dale. Because I signed up for the job I should live my life back side of the clock for 30 years? Does anybody do that?
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No, but I do believe it's an individual's responsibility to manage it as they see fit, but manage it somehow. No one else can do it for them; they know the schedule, they know their particular body's needs. Do what you need to. I believe that's what Dale is inferring.

There are scientific ways to mitigate fatigue. The new rest rules were a step in the right direction but, sadly, big money bought a cargo cutout. My union is suing the FAA. I hope we win.
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And ensuring that rest rules apply across the board, is one way of accomplishing what I mention in a macro way. I hope you win here too.
 
pullup said:
If that's the job you signed up for, then yes.
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Spoken like someone who sleeps at night! You do what you can to minimize fatigue, but if you think I'm going to keep a night freight sleep schedule on days off at home, you're off the deep end. Nobody does that.
 
My fiancé works in the medical field and has a schedule of 3 twelves, Thurs-Sat. Her shift is 1900-0700. Even though it's just three days/wk, it wreaks absolute havoc on her, to the point she was even crying the other day when she couldn't force herself to get enough sleep before starting her 3 day last week.

For those that would advocate sticking to a schedule like that on your off days, you are absolutely off your rocker. It is literally impossible to socialize with the rest of the world, unless you want to mostly hang out with meth addicts or something. Thank God she's done with that schedule as of this week and is now on days. It was very obviously affecting her physical and mental health.
 
I'm weird, I could rock that schedule like Robocop, but I'm not necessarily a "normal" person.

Here's the problem, the people with "money" figure that a "motivated" person can handle that and those that can't simply aren't motivated enough. Which is absolute crap.
 
Acrofox said:
As a completely random, non-scientific but directly experiential statement: I and many in my industry are nocturnal by nature. My absolute most normal schedule... the one that has me well rested, happy and feeling good ... is ~13-14:00 - 06-07:00.

Waking up at 07:00 every morning runs the risk of turning me into a zombie.

So .. these things aren't absolutes.

~Fox
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Foxes are generally nocturnal.
 
dasleben said:
Spoken like someone who sleeps at night! You do what you can to minimize fatigue, but if you think I'm going to keep a night freight sleep schedule on days off at home, you're off the deep end. Nobody does that.
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I've worked a back end of the clock schedule for years FYI. I wasn't advocating keeping the same schedule on your days off, I was just stating if you sign up for a job then you should meet the expectations of that job. How you do it is up to you.
 
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