UPS A300 down at Birmingham AL

DE727UPS said:
Here is some info on the sink rate call which you will get in mode 1 of the EGPWS with the gear and flaps down:
The “SINK RATE” alert is based on altitude and initiated when the rate of descent exceeds the
following approximate values:
Altitude (AGL) Descent Rate (FPM)
500 1500
400 1400
300 1300
200 1200
100 1000
If the rate of descent exceeds these values by an additional margin, the EGPWS will initiate the
“PULL UP” warning. A go-around following the “PULL UP” aural warning is mandatory.

Looking at Gypsy's PDF, if your high descent rate worsens, it looks like you'd get a "pull up" call at 1600 fpm at 100 feet while 1000 fpm will get you "sink rate".

According to the LOC 18 into BHM, it has a 3.28 degree glide path. Let's round that to 3.3 degrees. Then, look at page 11 of 13 of the descent rate PDF here:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-108.pdf

Looks like you need 876 fpm to stay on path. You get a "sink rate" call at 1000 fpm at 100 agl.

My point with all this is that at very low altitudes you have little margin between required descent rates and the EGPWS saying "sink rate". To get a "Pull up" you need 1600 fpm at 100 feet. Just throwing all that out. I've got "sink rate" a few times on approach and corrected. It's not good but it's correctable.

I'm not trying to speculate. Just throwing out some interesting numbers that show the challenge of a non-precision approach at typical high heavy jet airspeeds. Be safe.....
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Thanks for the info. One thing I would add, and I preface this by saying I have no idea what kind of EGPWS was on that plane. But with the GPWS referenced in that PDF, an airplane in the landing configuration would be in mode 2b, and the "Pull-up" aural alerts would be suppressed. The only 2b alerts would be "Terrain, Terrain!" if the terrain closure rate envelope was exceeded.
 
The chart in your PDF shows a "Pull up" from mode 1 before a "terrain call" in 2b in the landing configuration. But either would require a go-around per our company ops. This is getting way beyond the scope of what anyone cares about and the Seahawks game is on. I'm done. The only reason I post this is because I want people to understand a simple "sink rate" call is pretty easily had in a lot of situations and might not always require a go around.
 
BobDDuck said:
I can only think of two midairs in the last 10 years where both aircraft had TCAS and still managed to collide. The one in Brazil may not even count because the transponder on the Legacy wasn't working.
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Which means we are overdue, and yes it's going to happen again. Just a matter of time.
 
sdfcvoh said:
Terrible to speculate, but could this be as simple as an altimeter mis-set due to fatigue?
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From the CVR info the NTSB has divulged, it's seeming more and more like this may come down to a series of simple mistakes that weren't realized until right before or right at point of impact.
 
BobDDuck said:
I can only think of two midairs in the last 10 years where both aircraft had TCAS and still managed to collide. The one in Brazil may not even count because the transponder on the Legacy wasn't working.
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They tend to not work when they're shut off........just sayin'. :D
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I'd be willing to bet the f-bomb plays a factor in this.
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Very possible. Moreso as: a) aircraft malfunctions get ruled out, and b) what the CVR has on it regarding not only what the crew was doing, but what they may not have been doing.

Unfortunately, as you well know; it wouldn't be the first, and won't be the last; if it comes down to that.
 
Funeral arrangements for Captain Beal are:

Tuesday August 20, 2013

Visitation - 12:00 Noon

Funeral Service - 1:00pm

Mount Carmel Baptist Church
7237 Tuckaseegee Rd
Charlotte, NC 28214
(704)394-3525

Interment

Liberty Hill Baptist Church
5725 Liberty Hill Rd
Catawba, SC 29704

(803)324-0120



Please note: All flight crew attending are asked to wear uniforms.


Arrangements for First Officer Shanda Fanning



Memorial service for Shanda Renee Carney Fanning

Monday, August 19, 2013 at 2:00pm, in the chapel of Doak-Howell Funeral Home.

Visitation will begin at 1:00pm at the funeral home.

In lieu of flowers, memorials may be made to Shanda Carney Fanning Aviation Scholarship or Horse Rescue Fund, Regions Bank 101 Elm St. Shelbyville, TN 37160 (931)685-1479.
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I would think so, I flew many night missions over Afghanistan in the middle of the night...heck it doesn't matter what time of day it is, you need to be disciplined with your sleep schedule. Once your circadian rhythms are set you should be fine. The problem is when they move you around in your clock.
 
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But can you realistically have people be that disciplined in their outside lives? Sure it's possible, but week in and week out all year long?

Sure the company and FAA can write, "A Pilot is responsible for showing for his/her trip well rested and fit for duty, otherwise he/she should call out sick." But guys simply don't do it. Even post - Colgan I knew guys commuting at odd times to maximize home time, showing up exhausted. And these were guys flying daytime primarily.
 
Personal/professional responsibility...you took the gig, now live up to the expectation. I don't know, maybe I'm being harsh, but not as harsh as the ground coming through your windshield.

(None of this is directed particularly towards this event, merely speaking about fatigue and our responsibility as professionals to mitigate that threat.)

Baronman said:
Sure the company and FAA can write, "A Pilot is responsible for showing for his/her trip well rested and fit for duty, otherwise he/she should call out sick."
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and anything other than that is not living up to the responsibility.
 
Baronman said:
But can you realistically have people be that disciplined in their outside lives? Sure it's possible, but week in and week out all year long?

Sure the company and FAA can write, "A Pilot is responsible for showing for his/her trip well rested and fit for duty, otherwise he/she should call out sick." But guys simply don't do it. Even post - Colgan I knew guys commuting at odd times to maximize home time, showing up exhausted. And these were guys flying daytime primarily.
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I don't believe it's a night vs. day thing. Pilots need to be trained in the signs of fatigue. True legitimate fatigue, not tired of work fatigue. Not I don't want to see the hub for 5th time today fatigue. This training along with a culture of no abuse by pilots as well as honest respect by companies to recognize a fatigued pilot is as bad as or even worse than a drunk pilot, maybe then we can approach this link in the accident chains that cost so many.
 
Bumblebee said:
I would think so, I flew many night missions over Afghanistan in the middle of the night...heck it doesn't matter what time of day it is, you need to be disciplined with you sleep schedule. Once your circadian rhythms are set you should be fine. The problem is when they move you around in you clock.
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Absolutely agree.

I have a 3.5 hour "wave" myself.
 
Bumblebee said:
Personal/professional responsibility...you took the gig, now live up to the expectation. I don't know, maybe I'm being harsh, but not as harsh as the ground coming through your windshield.

(None of this is directed particularly towards this event, merely speaking about fatigue and our responsibility as professionals to mitigate that threat.)

and anything other than that is not living up to the responsibility.
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You don't think that is a little, well, "short sighted"? Your CR isn't something you just move around with a nap or two. I work a 9 day schedule. 3 days, 3 nights, 3 off. How do I flop my CR in 24 hours or less?
 
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