bLizZuE
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The point is you can interview and be hired before you go out and get your ATP.
UAL Mil Pilot Program
- Thread starter MikeD
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Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Was responding to a post about no hour requirements. They’ve done their homework with regards to the career trajectory of military pilots. It’s hard not to hit R-ATP hours within service commitment.
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Lawman
Well-Known Member
Especially when they started putting out decade Active Duty Service requirements….
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///AMG
Well-Known Member
You might be surprised what may come to transpire for active dudes. I know plenty of them that are within months of getting out, and short of traditional ATP mins. When I was in their shoes, you had mins leaving your first tour, easily. I was just stupid because I didn't spring for the ticket under the old rules, because you know, "I don't want to be an airline pilot". But I give it another 5 years and those cats won't even have 750 when they are able to move on. These planes don't fly themselves, but we spent 20 years beating every piece of hardware into the ground for no particular reason (particularly my service). We have Super Hornets (perhaps a majority) that are being monitored for lifetime hours/traps/etc. I just heard my last active duty squadron is being augmented as a dual E and F squadron because the F's are too hard to come by. That would have been unheard of "only the Marines do that ^****" kind of thing only a few years ago.
Skåning
Well-Known Member
How much control do mil guys have on getting more hours? Or are they just along for the ride as far as daily assignments and flying goes?
///AMG
Well-Known Member
*Yes, mostly along for the ride
**if you care more about how, read below
Well for one, a basic assumption is that they are going from flying tour to flying tour during those first 10 years. Which isn't by any means a guarantee. But assuming that, it probably has more to do with your particular first squadron's deployment schedule. Do multiple cruises during that first tour, and • yourself out to the flight schedule, you'll be hours king. Being a tanker pilot helps in that scenario as well. Shore tour (the second one, after your first tour), really is just kinda hit or miss. Most of those flying jobs are what we call "production" tours, in other words instructing somewhere. Historically those have been busy places with lots of flying, however multiple red-stripes in the T-45 hurt some of those guys. And we feel the second and third order effects of any flight school delays/production slowing, since they feed us all our newly winged students. But the biggest factor, and one out of anyones control in the cheap seats, is the flight hour program/allocation. That first tour where you would typically make your flight hour money, can be crushed into feast or famine, depending on year/timing/politics/etc. You might do an 11 month deployment, do a couple months of sustainment afterwards (funded to be ready to immediately re-deploy if needed), and then drop to the very bottom of priority for parts, and personnel. This is an area where I got lucky in two different tours, while peers struggled in their particular squadrons that were just more unlucky. This part is called "basic" phase, and can, in more extreme examples, amount to 1-2 airplanes being available to fly in a 12 jet squadron on any given day. Eventually you rejoin the pre-deployment workup cycle, but there can be a solid 1-1.5 years in there that is very much not flying a lot. Like I said, I got lucky, but for those who went to places hurting like that, you can imagine that barely flying for a year and half out of a 3 year tour won't be balanced out by a lot of flying for 6-9 months on deployment. That is a long winded, and potentially jumbled confusing mess of an answer, but perhaps it answers your question.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
*Yes, mostly along for the ride
**if you care more about how, read below
Well for one, a basic assumption is that they are going from flying tour to flying tour during those first 10 years. Which isn't by any means a guarantee. But assuming that, it probably has more to do with your particular first squadron's deployment schedule. Do multiple cruises during that first tour, and • yourself out to the flight schedule, you'll be hours king. Being a tanker pilot helps in that scenario as well. Shore tour (the second one, after your first tour), really is just kinda hit or miss. Most of those flying jobs are what we call "production" tours, in other words instructing somewhere. Historically those have been busy places with lots of flying, however multiple red-stripes in the T-45 hurt some of those guys. And we feel the second and third order effects of any flight school delays/production slowing, since they feed us all our newly winged students. But the biggest factor, and one out of anyones control in the cheap seats, is the flight hour program/allocation. That first tour where you would typically make your flight hour money, can be crushed into feast or famine, depending on year/timing/politics/etc. You might do an 11 month deployment, do a couple months of sustainment afterwards (funded to be ready to immediately re-deploy if needed), and then drop to the very bottom of priority for parts, and personnel. This is an area where I got lucky in two different tours, while peers struggled in their particular squadrons that were just more unlucky. This part is called "basic" phase, and can, in more extreme examples, amount to 1-2 airplanes being available to fly in a 12 jet squadron on any given day. Eventually you rejoin the pre-deployment workup cycle, but there can be a solid 1-1.5 years in there that is very much not flying a lot. Like I said, I got lucky, but for those who went to places hurting like that, you can imagine that barely flying for a year and half out of a 3 year tour won't be balanced out by a lot of flying for 6-9 months on deployment. That is a long winded, and potentially jumbled confusing mess of an answer, but perhaps it answers your question.
Given you can throw everything (IFS, civ dual, mil dual, civ PIC, civ SIC, sim) at a R-ATP, not just PIC, it would be hard not to hit R-ATP numbers by the end of your service commitment.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
For now, this is a true statement. If we go down the road the Marine VMFA community has in the last 10 years, maybe not. That said, their career timing/milestones are a little different than ours.
I'll just say that when I got here, I was surprised to see what the flight hour situation was for a lot of the new JO instructors. When I sat in their Safety O seat for a few months a year or so ago, I was even more surprised to see the hours that fleet CO's were endorsing initial FCF quals at, for their outgoing senior JOs. The minimum is 500 hrs in type, waiverable at CO's judgement, but some of these were barely more than half that number.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
That is … shocking.For now, this is a true statement. If we go down the road the Marine VMFA community has in the last 10 years, maybe not. That said, their career timing/milestones are a little different than ours.
I'll just say that when I got here, I was surprised to see what the flight hour situation was for a lot of the new JO instructors. When I sat in their Safety O seat for a few months a year or so ago, I was even more surprised to see the hours that fleet CO's were endorsing initial FCF quals at, for their outgoing senior JOs. The minimum is 500 hrs in type, waiverable at CO's judgement, but some of these were barely more than half that number.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
You're telling me
I mean I have no doubt those guys can safely fly a PRO-A, but it was just wild to see what some people are leaving their JO tours with now. I honestly don't know if there is a statistically meaningful difference between exped and boat when it comes to hours, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were. Most of the low hours folks seemed to be exped.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
You're telling me
I mean I have no doubt those guys can safely fly a PRO-A, but it was just wild to see what some people are leaving their JO tours with now. I honestly don't know if there is a statistically meaningful difference between exped and boat when it comes to hours, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were. Most of the low hours folks seemed to be exped.
Have IP gigs become competitive, as a result?
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I don't think that has changed much, seems to be competitive as ever (though maybe VAQ was different than VFA in the past?). But as you probably know, the competitiveness of that is nearly 100% FITREP and front office back channel based, two things that don't always reflect actual capacity in the airplane depending on who those skippers are (though we are fortunate to have great active instructors here right now)
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I’ve come to realize that the current salary options for new gen Z (or whatever generation is just entering the workforce) are very different than those of us 20 years (or more) ago. When I left engineering school, we were highly paid, and could expect to start at maybe 60-80k, at a good job. Nowadays, I think in urban areas, we are talking 200k. It’s wild. I think the same things, but man, it is just a different time. I do remember my (much older, probably Mikes age) Brother in law, talking about his software engineering job at intel, which he retired from recently after 20+ years. He was paid $175k. I make almost double that now. So i think you just cant compare yourself to newer generations. Kinda like my dad once telling me “well as an O-3 (in the 1960s) I made $10/month”
Wait what? Did you upgrade? I don’t make that much…
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ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
I think he works two jobs. Or has retirement.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I think both
Soku39
Well-Known Member
Sounds like we're in good shape for a fight in the Pacific.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, we spent 20+ years hammering our hardware and our people, in multiple "low intensity conflicts", losing sight of the bigger picture. I'll hand it to the DoD that they have made a significant course correction in the last couple years, with respect to hardware acquisitions and priorities (and $$$). The challenge is that when you only have so many combat ready people and things, there isn't enough to go around to everyone. So the teams on the bench, in this case squadrons not deployed or deploying, suffer from a material and manpower perspective. Our deploying squadrons are probably more ready than they've been for a long time though.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
haha no, I just like to collect jobs and work 30 days per month
Though when I start getting year 3 pay this spring, I think it will be time to re-assess, and start enjoying some of my "days off". I was mostly trying to trigger Cherokee "Here's my W2" Cruiser
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smack300
Well-Known Member
I was just in ATP school with four Army guys flying King airs. They all had been in for over 10 years, most around 15ish. They had been helicopter transition fix wing guys and been flying about 4-5 years. Most were barely over 500 hours. I was telling them they need to find another way to get hours or at this rate they might leave the military and barely make regionals. I know they can get their restricted ATPs but not many are gonna hire at 750 R-ATP. And who knows what the future holds, hiring can drastically change by the time they get out.
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