The Attack on the 2nd Amendment Continues

KSCessnaDriver said:
Why? Would you show up to a meeting where you know the entire premise is set up against you and no matter what you say or do, they're going to pull a smear job?

And for the life of me, I still cannot figure out why the left is constantly going for some sort of "assault" weapons ban, when handguns are used in crimes and murders at a 20x higher rate.
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Seemed like it was pretty well moderated to me and I am still not finding the smear campaign as I listen to the town hall.

This is where you really can't say "the left." What you mean to say is some on the left. I am pretty darn left leaning on many topics, tend to vote mostly indy or dem, and I am against banning any existing legal gun type. I am all for finding ways to reduce the flow of guns to criminals, but not if it means getting rid of a type of weapon, which we all know is pointless.
 
scooter2525 said:
My google fo isn't the strongest but I haven't seen Obama show up at the NRA HQ either.
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It is about respect.

The President of the United States invites you to discuss something, you show up on his terms. Here is an example...

http://thoughtcatalog.com/jacob-gee...resident-obama-will-bring-tears-to-your-eyes/


RESPECT.jpg
 
Acadia said:
I am told that the deals were made online, Paypal and shipped. I have no firsthand evidence if this is true or not, but I have no reason to doubt it.
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That is incredibly illegal. I'm pretty good at the internet and have looked far and wide for guns to purchase online that I couldn't find anywhere, and I have yet to come across any place that would do such a thing.
If I wanted to ship one of my guns to my father(via UPS/FedEx, because USPS is illegal), I'd still need to ship it to an FFL near him, who would do a background check.
 
Acadia said:
I know people that have purchased guns online, which like any private sale in my state, allows you to avoid a background check.
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If that was done, it was against the law already, period.

You may sell/buy face-to-face, but not use any mail or shipping service. If a gun is shipped, it MUST go through an FFL on at least the receiving end under current law. When it goes through the FFL, a 4473 is filled out and a NICS check performed as part of the transfer.

You can arrange a face-to-face sale, connecting via an ad on the internet. But, the buy and transfer has to physically occur face to face. Again, if the gun is shipped person-to-person, this is in violation of existing law.

So, this idea that "you can buy a gun online and avoid a background check" is 100% bull.
 
Hacker15e said:
So, this idea that "you can buy a gun online and avoid a background check" is 100% bull.
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That part of his speech really made me scratch my head. I mean, if you're going to have any sort of a discussion about gun laws, shouldn't you know what the existing ones are? So at the very least you can look like you know what you're talking about.

How did that even make it past the speechwriters and fact checkers?
 
z987k said:
That part of his speech really made me scratch my head. I mean, if you're going to have any sort of a discussion about gun laws, shouldn't you know what the existing ones are? So at the very least you can look like you know what you're talking about.

How did that even make it past the speechwriters and fact checkers?
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I'm certain he was talking about online ads that are used to arrange face-to-face transactions, but he (and the gun control advocacy groups) use very misleading language and descriptions to make the uneducated think that it is something that it isn't.

This is the very same idea with the term "assault weapon", and the loaded terms/phrases "common-sense", "reasonable", "gun safety", etc.
 
z987k said:
That part of his speech really made me scratch my head. I mean, if you're going to have any sort of a discussion about gun laws, shouldn't you know what the existing ones are? So at the very least you can look like you know what you're talking about.

How did that even make it past the speechwriters and fact checkers?
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Whoa whoa whoa....

He invited people to come on and refute him. Apparently being able to make bald faced inaccurate statements on a major media channel was just part of "his terms" according to others on here.


Obviously the solution to this problem is passing laws that have nothing to do with the law somebody already broke shipping guns illegally to persons across state lines. Maybe a 3 day waiting period.
 
z987k said:
That part of his speech really made me scratch my head. I mean, if you're going to have any sort of a discussion about gun laws, shouldn't you know what the existing ones are? So at the very least you can look like you know what you're talking about.

How did that even make it past the speechwriters and fact checkers?
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It's a very smart piece of electoral pandering. It's about winning swing voters. The swings who own guns and care about gun control know that this does nothing, and are more likely to move left because they are less concerned about the Democrats and their gun control silliness. The swings who don't own guns and care about gun control see the Democrats as stepping up to fix the evils of guns, because they don't know any better..
Say what you want about Obama, but he's incredibly good at manipulating the electorate.
 
NickH said:
It's a very smart piece of electoral pandering. It's about winning swing voters. The swings who own guns and care about gun control know that this does nothing, and are more likely to move left because they are less concerned about the Democrats and their gun control silliness. The swings who don't own guns and care about gun control see the Democrats as stepping up to fix the evils of guns, because they don't know any better..
Say what you want about Obama, but he's incredibly good at manipulating the electorate.
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That is true. Not a single thing he's proposing will have any meaningful impact. Except it might be easier and more people will have an FFL. Which is pretty okay in my book. To be honest I didn't see anything he proposed that I had any problem with.
 
z987k said:
That part of his speech really made me scratch my head. I mean, if you're going to have any sort of a discussion about gun laws, shouldn't you know what the existing ones are? So at the very least you can look like you know what you're talking about.

How did that even make it past the speechwriters and fact checkers?
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I took that statement to mean that it is easy to skirt the law and criminals are doing it by buying and selling guns through the mail, not as we need a law to make that illegal.
 
Hacker15e said:
If that was done, it was against the law already, period..
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It is absolutely illegal. The point is that it sounds like it is easy to break that law. At least in the case of the mail, it takes a criminal on both ends to make it happen. I have to think that makes it pretty rare.

It is also illegal for a criminal to get a fake ID, drive to my state with cash, and line up a bunch of face to face private purchases to avoid background checks. In this case though, the sellers would not know they were helping a criminal. That is a weak link in the system.
 
Acadia said:
It is absolutely illegal. The point is that it sounds like it is easy to break that law. At least in the case of the mail, it takes a criminal on both ends to make it happen. I have to think that makes it pretty rare.

It is also illegal for a criminal to get a fake ID, drive to my state with cash, and line up a bunch of face to face private purchases to avoid background checks. In this case though, the sellers would not know they were helping a criminal. That is a weak link in the system.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was also under the impression that it was illegal to face to face sell a handgun to an out of state buyer. Which is what the vast majority of murders are done with.
 
z987k said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was also under the impression that it was illegal to face to face sell a handgun to an out of state buyer. Which is what the vast majority of murders are done with.
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My understanding is that it varies in each state, with many states having minimal requirements for private sales. In Maine, the only responsibility for private sale that I am aware of is that a seller must verify the age of the buyer. So if I list my gun in the local want ads or via a website for a face to face sale, and the buyer can show that he/she is 18+, I have done my minimum due diligence as the seller. Even if a state restricts private sales to other residence of that sate, the hurdle for an easy crime is a fake ID. The seller has no way of knowing that they may have just sent their gun off to Newark for resale.

I have never sold a gun to a stranger, and because of this I don't think that I ever would unless we went through an FFL. Granted a person can still commit fraud buying through an FFL, so I don't think you can prevent this abuse entirely, but I do think such a requirement would have a big impact on the bulk criminal trade.
 
There's some really good deals on magazines and ammunition on line right now. Just picked up a bunch more 30rd IMI poly mags from CTD for $8 each. I have some already, and those things are almost indestructible.
 
Hacker15e said:
If that was done, it was against the law already, period.

You may sell/buy face-to-face, but not use any mail or shipping service. If a gun is shipped, it MUST go through an FFL on at least the receiving end under current law. When it goes through the FFL, a 4473 is filled out and a NICS check performed as part of the transfer.

You can arrange a face-to-face sale, connecting via an ad on the internet. But, the buy and transfer has to physically occur face to face. Again, if the gun is shipped person-to-person, this is in violation of existing law.

So, this idea that "you can buy a gun online and avoid a background check" is 100% bull.
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Actually no, I'm 99% sure that a private sale, within a state, is legal to be shipped. It's incredibly dumb and a great way to do something incredibly unsafe, but it is legal. Most people aren't dumb enough to do it, but AFAIK, it is legal.

But yes, you buy from a retailer, it has to be shipped to someone with an FFL.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Actually no, I'm 99% sure that a private sale, within a state, is legal to be shipped. It's incredibly dumb and a great way to do something incredibly unsafe, but it is legal. Most people aren't dumb enough to do it, but AFAIK, it is legal.
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It is not against federal law to ship firearms in-state, correct.

I was incorrect in that statement (regarding in-state purchases) in my previous post, thanks for pointing that out.
 
Hacker15e said:
If that was done, it was against the law already, period.

You may sell/buy face-to-face, but not use any mail or shipping service. If a gun is shipped, it MUST go through an FFL on at least the receiving end under current law. When it goes through the FFL, a 4473 is filled out and a NICS check performed as part of the transfer.

You can arrange a face-to-face sale, connecting via an ad on the internet. But, the buy and transfer has to physically occur face to face. Again, if the gun is shipped person-to-person, this is in violation of existing law.

So, this idea that "you can buy a gun online and avoid a background check" is 100% bull.
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I was going to say. The one gun I bought was from GoG and it was shipped to my local FFL where I had to go pick it up. Er, excuse me, where I had to come in, and then go home and wait 10 days to pick it up (California rule).
 
Hacker15e said:
It is not against federal law to ship firearms in-state, correct.

I was incorrect in that statement (regarding in-state purchases) in my previous post, thanks for pointing that out.
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No problem. I was just pointing that out, but I'm 99.999% sure no gun owner is dumb enough to sell a gun in that way.
 
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