Takeoff below landing minimums?

[killbilly]

TLDR: I would not fly a single engine Caravan off of a below-135-mins runway for the wages and QOL that the OP is probably suffering through.

I gotta ask, Goat, since you put it this way:

Is there a wage/QOL where you would do that?

 

[Inverted]

I gotta ask, Goat, since you put it this way:

Is there a wage/QOL where you would do that?

That isn't the point of his statement. Mutual exclusivity comes to mind here.

 

[Inverted]

Now that I have some distance from my 135 freight days, it's painfully obvious why companies hire either low time guys or guys that couldn't get hired anywhere else. 135 freight wouldn't happen efficiently or viably if the pilots had the same level of judgement as guys who had been in 121 (or had respectable labor representation) for any length of time. It's the difference between be able to say "I guess I can do this" and "This is stupid, I'm going home".

AMF OAK had a somewhat notorious scud-run-from-the-big-airport-to-the-little-airport approach that I absolutely loathed. It was technically legal, but I know that myself and other pilots occasionally pushed the boundary a bit on what might have been legal or safe. Not getting to the little airport meant "punishment" in the sense that your drivers would complain and the base manager would be calling you incessantly until the weather had improved to repo the airplane.

For me it became an upsetting reminder that I needed to GTFO of that company but I know for a lot of other guys it was a bit of measuring contest and they loved to talk about how low they flew or whatever.

Sometimes I get a peak at a very senior AMF pilot's facebook page and see his pontificating about how 121 pilots are lesser aviators than the sky-gods of the 135 world and his legion of loyal followers agree with him vocally (dissenters like @Inverted are banned from his page). But now that I have lived in both worlds, I see that for the worthless tripe that it is. Safety and professionalism are definitively higher in the 121 world, without question.

TLDR: I would not fly a single engine Caravan off of a below-135-mins runway for the wages and QOL that the OP is probably suffering through.

This post shows a real lack of balls and stick and rudder skills.


Yeeeeeee haaaaaaawwwwww!!!

 

[Roger Roger]

Now that I have some distance from my 135 freight days, it's painfully obvious why companies hire either low time guys or guys that couldn't get hired anywhere else. 135 freight wouldn't happen efficiently or viably if the pilots had the same level of judgement as guys who had been in 121 (or had respectable labor representation) for any length of time. It's the difference between be able to say "I guess I can do this" and "This is stupid, I'm going home".

AMF OAK had a somewhat notorious scud-run-from-the-big-airport-to-the-little-airport approach that I absolutely loathed. It was technically legal, but I know that myself and other pilots occasionally pushed the boundary a bit on what might have been legal or safe. Not getting to the little airport meant "punishment" in the sense that your drivers would complain and the base manager would be calling you incessantly until the weather had improved to repo the airplane.

For me it became an upsetting reminder that I needed to GTFO of that company but I know for a lot of other guys it was a bit of measuring contest and they loved to talk about how low they flew or whatever.

Sometimes I get a peak at a very senior AMF pilot's facebook page and see his pontificating about how 121 pilots are lesser aviators than the sky-gods of the 135 world and his legion of loyal followers agree with him vocally (dissenters like @Inverted are banned from his page). But now that I have lived in both worlds, I see that for the worthless tripe that it is. Safety and professionalism are definitively higher in the 121 world, without question.

TLDR: I would not fly a single engine Caravan off of a below-135-mins runway for the wages and QOL that the OP is probably suffering through.

Meh. You're obviously pretty bitter about your time at AMF, but hiding at the center of the freight bravado there's a little nugget of truth that safely and consistently completing VFR flights in a piston twin without all the resources of a huge dispatch department etc DOES require a level of knowledge, decision making, and for those of us who still believe it's a thing (@ppragman and @Capt. Chaos), actual piloting skill that is pretty far beyond what most folks in 121 flying deal with on a day to day basis. Go ahead, burn me as a heretic for saying it.

 

[Inverted]

Meh. You're obviously pretty bitter about your time at AMF, but hiding at the center of the freight bravado there's a little nugget of truth that safely and consistently completing VFR flights in a piston twin without all the resources of a huge dispatch department etc DOES require a level of knowledge, decision making, and for those of us who still believe it's a thing (@ppragman and @Capt. Chaos), actual piloting skill that is pretty far beyond what most folks in 121 flying deal with on a day to day basis. Go ahead, burn me as a heretic for saying it.

Pardon me while I facepalm myself unconscious...

 

[Tommay85]

Now that I have some distance from my 135 freight days, it's painfully obvious why companies hire either low time guys or guys that couldn't get hired anywhere else. 135 freight wouldn't happen efficiently or viably if the pilots had the same level of judgement as guys who had been in 121 (or had respectable labor representation) for any length of time. It's the difference between be able to say "I guess I can do this" and "This is stupid, I'm going home".

AMF OAK had a somewhat notorious scud-run-from-the-big-airport-to-the-little-airport approach that I absolutely loathed. It was technically legal, but I know that myself and other pilots occasionally pushed the boundary a bit on what might have been legal or safe. Not getting to the little airport meant "punishment" in the sense that your drivers would complain and the base manager would be calling you incessantly until the weather had improved to repo the airplane.

For me it became an upsetting reminder that I needed to GTFO of that company but I know for a lot of other guys it was a bit of measuring contest and they loved to talk about how low they flew or whatever.

Sometimes I get a peak at a very senior AMF pilot's facebook page and see his pontificating about how 121 pilots are lesser aviators than the sky-gods of the 135 world and his legion of loyal followers agree with him vocally (dissenters like @Inverted are banned from his page). But now that I have lived in both worlds, I see that for the worthless tripe that it is. Safety and professionalism are definitively higher in the 121 world, without question.

TLDR: I would not fly a single engine Caravan off of a below-135-mins runway for the wages and QOL that the OP is probably suffering through.

Pretty sure you most likely misread my post. What I was comfortable with was NOT because of it being part 91 or 135. It was because of being low time and over confidence and the regs allowed that kind of exploration, if you will. If it was any different, I wouldn't have been doing it.

I don't fly with non-MELable items and I certainly don't fly in weather that I deem unsafe, even if the regs allow it. That comes from experience. 121 puts restrictions in place, so that judgment call shouldn't even need to be made. That is the ONLY difference with 121 and the rest.

If you think there's any difference in the mentality of accomplishing a flight safely, we'll you're an idiot... If you didn't have the stones to say no, we'll that's your fault.

 

[Roger Roger]

Pardon me while I facepalm myself unconscious...

Ah you're right, all pilots are interchangeable widgets, the ultimate measurement of flying skill is whether one can fly a V1 cut they know is coming, and judgment is simply measured in how closely you can follow a detailed SOP/GOM.

 

[Tommay85]

Meh. You're obviously pretty bitter about your time at AMF, but hiding at the center of the freight bravado there's a little nugget of truth that safely and consistently completing VFR flights in a piston twin without all the resources of a huge dispatch department etc DOES require a level of knowledge, decision making, and for those of us who still believe it's a thing (@ppragman and @Capt. Chaos), actual piloting skill that is pretty far beyond what most folks in 121 flying deal with on a day to day basis. Go ahead, burn me as a heretic for saying it.

Consider yourself burned then?

 

[Inverted]

To be fair, you guys seem to maybe be referencing the typical wheelhouse of skills and experience of a 121 domestic regional pilot, and it is still incorrect at best. 121 rules are restrictive but so is 135. The company I fly for operates closer to an airline than it does a mom and pop 135.

121 is the safest segment of aviation with good reason, not on accident and not solely because of confining rules and regulations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tommay85]

To be fair, you guys seem to maybe be referencing the typical wheelhouse of skills and experience of a 121 domestic regional pilot, and it is still incorrect at best. 121 rules are restrictive but so is 135. The company I fly for operates closer to an airline than it does a mom and pop 135.

121 is the safest segment of aviation with good reason, not on accident and not solely because of confining rules and regulations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Eh, lower time FO, combined with a cowboyish captain can still operate safely because of the regs and sops alone. Nothing replaces experience. Regs and sops negate most of the risk though.

That and 121s (the big ones at least) mostly shoot visuals and ILSs...

 

[Inverted]

Ah you're right, all pilots are interchangeable widgets, the ultimate measurement of flying skill is whether one can fly a V1 cut they know is coming, and judgment is simply measured in how closely you can follow a detailed SOP/GOM.

Your comments come from ignorance as to how the 121 world operates. Do you really think you're more skillful and knowledgable flying a little chieftain into some nowhere strip in Alaska over a Crew taking a 747 across the earth to some foreign airspace, with foreign regulations to a foreign airport?

Sure the crew that flies SFO to LAX may not have to use their pilot skills to the max that day, but that same crew may fly an NDB approach to some night strip in Mexico the next day.

Seriously what is the deal with 135 pilots downplaying 121 flying? Does it really make the locks room slap ass that much more meaningful? I don't think anyone should downplay any flying unless they've done it.

 

[Tommay85]

To be fair, you guys seem to maybe be referencing the typical wheelhouse of skills and experience of a 121 domestic regional pilot, and it is still incorrect at best. 121 rules are restrictive but so is 135. The company I fly for operates closer to an airline than it does a mom and pop 135.

121 is the safest segment of aviation with good reason, not on accident and not solely because of confining rules and regulations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The spirit of an airline lies in the GOM of AMF and you know it. They burned plenty of people for not following it, after something happened of course. Knowing before hand it wasn't being followed, so yeah, not operated like an airline at all. Carry on...

 

[Inverted]

Eh, lower time FO, combined with a cowboyish captain can still operate safely because of the regs and sops alone. Nothing replaces experience. Regs and sops negate most of the risk though.

You do know this literally describes Ameriflight right? 121 operators arguably have lower minimums for departure, fly CATII and CATIII approaches. In lots of ways on paper part 135 restricts you more. If they are enforced and used.

I have no doubt that you do the right thing, fly safe, don't fly with broken stuff, fly in the interest of safety, however to pretend that AMF and 135 freight doesn't have the sketchy reputation that it does is just silly. Hell the beloved Ken (director of safety I might add) was forced out for telling a pilot with a hurt engine to continue the flight.

Without the culture backing you up, regs are meaningless. Myself and many others were blatantly asked to violate regs, that is a cultural problem that plagues 135 as a whole.

That and 121s (the big ones at least) mostly shoot visuals and ILSs...

This is completely general.

AMF pilots in PHX only shoot visuals so do they get to play locker room slap ass at the end of the day about how awesome they are?

 

[Inverted]

The spirit of an airline lies in the GOM of AMF and you know it. They burned plenty of people for not following it, after something happened of course. Knowing before hand it wasn't being followed, so yeah, not operated like an airline at all. Carry on...

The GOM is very general to part 135 to be honest. And again, what it says in the GOM is one part, there is a gap between legal and safe at most 135 companies.

 

[Tommay85]

The GOM is very general to part 135 to be honest. And again, what it says in the GOM is one part, there is a gap between legal and safe at most 135 companies.

Which is why I was arguing that 121 can further negate risk and why it's the safest. A reasonably thinking person can't operate part 91 just as safely as any other. An idiot cannot... An idiot can fly 121 more easily though.

 

[Tommay85]

I only liked this because your quoting/responses meshed together in a complete disaster!

Edited

It wouldn't even let me quote any of it. Who taught you how to internet???? Haha

 

[Inverted]

Which is why I was arguing that 121 can further negate risk and why it's the safest. A reasonably thinking person can't operate part 91 just as safely as any other. An idiot cannot... An idiot can fly 121 more easily though.

I disagree. 121 isn't a mindless operation. You have lots of variables. If anything places like AMF are very similar, both fly canned routes to the same airports

Life at an airline is as much about mindless aircraft control and flying visuals and canned routes as much as AMF and your typical no name freight company.

Different skillset don't mean 135 pilots are skilled and 121 pilots aren't. In fact 135 freight pilots make really crappy first time 135/121 pax pilots, and I know this from experience. Does that mean 135 pilots are unskilled because they don't understand finesse and smooth control of an aircraft? Are 121 pilots not skillful because they don't skud run through canyons VFR?

 

[Roger Roger]

Consider yourself burned then?

I really DGAF, the way things are around here you get the same reaction trying to have a useful discussion and share firsthand knowledge, so it's more fun to troll and watch folks get riled up.

 

[Tommay85]

I disagree. 121 isn't a mindless operation. You have lots of variables. If anything places like AMF are very similar, both fly canned routes to the same airports

Life at an airline is as much about mindless aircraft control and flying visuals and canned routes as much as AMF and your typical no name freight company.

Different skillset don't mean 135 pilots are skilled and 121 pilots aren't. In fact 135 freight pilots make really crappy first time 135/121 pax pilots, and I know this from experience. Does that mean 135 pilots are unskilled because they don't understand finesse and smooth control of an aircraft? Are 121 pilots not skillful because they don't skud run through canyons VFR?

Never argued skud running. The salmon run in SLC would be shut down almost every day if I were in power, but I digress.

The only thing I was arguing is that 135 and 91 allow more room for bad judgment and inexperience to show it's face.

I don't know anyone that's had any issues transitioning to 121 from 135. Freight to 135 pax I could see though. I mean, who would want to listen to the F word being used as a comma all day! Haha

 

[Tommay85]

I really DGAF, the way things are around here you get the same reaction trying to have a useful discussion and share firsthand knowledge, so it's more fun to troll and watch folks get riled up.

You're taking to THE troll!