Takeoff below landing minimums?

[ppragman]

VFR.

And when the weather's marginal that's how you end up trying to maintain VFR low level.

 

[Tommay85]

I'm not saying harder, hard, hard to transition to or anything like that. I'm saying it's different.

I worked at AMF and now I fly pax for a pretty high level company standards wise and I did just fine, and I have transitioned fine. But I have the luxury of viewing this from a standpoint of having done single pilot IFR, and now operating within a 121 style environment so I feel like I can compare and contrast the skill sets of each. There is a lot more to being a professional pilot than yanking and banking, a light twin in crappy weather. But also, it's how lots of pilots who are now successful airline pilots or private jet pilots have cut their teeth, so obviously there is something to it.

I forgot to say that we have had guys come over from the military and 121 world and not have any issues with AMF either.

 

[Tommay85]

That's a pretty arrogant post from someone who it sounds like (?) hasn't flown 121. I flew the Chieftain and the Brasilia.

Guess which airplane requires more muscle to fly on a single engine.

Guess which airplane has a more complex prop governor system.

Guess which airplane has a more complex instrument system.

I flew the Brasilia on 8 leg days, from airports like SFO, SLC, DEN and LAX into podunk uncontrolled airports. WAAAAAAY more operational variety than the 135 flying I did. Just because the airplane had an autopilot and was pressurized and climate controlled (with varying degrees of effectiveness) doesn't mean it required any less pure piloting skill than the old Chieftain. And this is a very consistent misconception that people who haven't flown 121 love to condescend with.



Ha! Is that supposed to be a knock against regionals?

You talk about AMF inflicting PTSD. Conversely, one could assume that 135 pilots are suffering from some massive inferiority complex the way they're constantly shouting about how 121 pilots aren't as skilled as they are.

Allow me to condescend. The Brasilia is a child's airplane.

I never flew the chieftain though, so I have nothing to say about your comparison. Just ribbing ya

 

[ppragman]

No rustled jimmies whatever the F that means lol.

This doesn't have as much to do with AMF as it does the general outlook that typical 135 pilots have towards the industry and your posts echo that general outlook.

Does flying in bad weather give you experience flying in bad weather? Yes

Does flying in bad weather make you more skillful? No not really. Single pilot IFR is a skill that takes time to master but don't have to push the odds in order to do it.

For some reason with 135 and freight especially, there is a mantra that the higher the risk, the better the pilot you are if you don't crash and die. I have a hard time understanding the logic there.

There is no nugget of truth to chest bumping in 135, that's exactly how it is and it is comical. You have been conditioned to think that flying single pilot IFR is a better skill than going from CFI to 121. This is is also comical...

The CFI that leaves his or her job for the first professional job is at a crossroads, they either go 135 or 121. The person that goes 135 to fly single pilot IFR will gain lots of experience flying in bad weather, flying single pilot IFR and become great at decision making on their own which is a great skillset in that niche. Guess where most of those skills would be absolutely terrible, in a 121 environment... There is a much hire propensity to learn bad habits flying 135 as well. Rule bending, skud running, illegal activity, flying with broken parts, pushed to do things that are extremely dangerous etc etc. Not all 135 operators are like that, but no domestic 121 carriers are like that. I didn't make up the reputation of 135 versus 121, this is widely known. If 135 pilots were so awesome, skilled and safe, then part 135 would have the reputation that 121 does, but it's not, and it doesn't.

The CFI that goes 121 will be shaped and molded with a different set of skills. So can the RJ FO fly in to a dirt strip in Alaska? I dunno maybe not, but can the 135 freight dawg shoot an RNP approach to mins? Know how to program an FMS? Sure piloting wise there is much more "pilot " happening at a 135 freight operator, but if somebody tried to hand fly an RJ for an entire trip they would look like an idiot. Different set of skills... Both sets of skills are appropriate for their type of flying, but if you take a 135 freight dawg and just stick them in the flight deck of an airliner, they will be laughed right out of the cockpit, and vise versa.

Another ironic thing is that we fly in the same weather, at least we takeoff and land in the same weather. I don't get the chest thumping over freight pilots being so bad ass about pushing risk. If you want high risk and high fives go BASE jumping, fly acro or something like that. Saying that 121 pilots aren't skillful is just plain stupid. It's a different set of skills. Sure are there bad airline pilots who lack skills? Absolutely! But there are also several airline pilots who are national and world champion aerobatic pilots, former shuttle commanders, former Air Force One commanders, fighter pilots, Reno Air Race pilots and more that will absolutely laugh you out of the room when you try to convince them that you have more skills than they do.

Well, I mean, this just simply isn't true. If you're hand flying 10-15 instrument approaches per week in crummy weather by yourself, you're going to be better at flying instrument approaches than someone who is doing less in a more automated airplane. Flying instrument approaches isn't the end-all-be-all of flying airplanes, but being "good" at flying in the weather is a good skill to have, and it's a perishable skill. That's right, you can be a steely-eyed missile man and fly in good weather for a year and not have the discipline to stay sharp and be objectively bad at flying IFR. Flying in challenging conditions is objectively better experience for challenging experiences you may run into later on than flying in easier conditions. It's not good if the first time you have an ass-pucker moment happens, it's with 70 people in the back. You should make those big mistakes when there aren't a lot of people that die if you get it wrong. You need to know how you'll respond in a bad situation, and if you never experience that then you'll always wonder.

There's more to it than the simple button pushing required, there's the mental acuity you have to learn to say, "I shouldn't be doing this" and that takes practice. Experience of all shapes and sizes is a good thing, and if you want to be making PIC decisions, 135 is a good way to start making them early in your career - hell, you can start making those decisions as early as 500 hours. That said, working 135 isn't the only way to get quality experience - hell, the guys flying for Colgan back in the day or whoever is doing it now, were getting some damn good experience by blasting around the Northeast in the ice and in the weather. But one thing 135 offers is a quick road to PIC in airplanes that are just complicated enough to kill you if you don't pay attention. Does it build bad habits? Maybe, but chances are that after 500hrs on the line at 121-Max-Airline that even the hardest freight dawg will have become cultured, because if he hasn't by then, he'll likely have been fired.

 

[Cal Goat]

Allow me to condescend. The Brasilia is a child's airplane.

I never flew the chieftain though, so I have nothing to say about your comparison. Just ribbing ya

I'm surely not worthy of flying the mighty San Antonio Sewer Pipe.

 

[Inverted]

Well, I mean, this just simply isn't true. If you're hand flying 10-15 instrument approaches per week in crummy weather by yourself, you're going to be better at flying instrument approaches than someone who is doing less in a more automated airplane. Flying instrument approaches isn't the end-all-be-all of flying airplanes, but being "good" at flying in the weather is a good skill to have, and it's a perishable skill. That's right, you can be a steely-eyed missile man and fly in good weather for a year and not have the discipline to stay sharp and be objectively bad at flying IFR. Flying in challenging conditions is objectively better experience for challenging experiences you may run into later on than flying in easier conditions. It's not good if the first time you have an ass-pucker moment happens, it's with 70 people in the back. You should make those big mistakes when there aren't a lot of people that die if you get it wrong. You need to know how you'll respond in a bad situation, and if you never experience that then you'll always wonder.

There's more to it than the simple button pushing required, there's the mental acuity you have to learn to say, "I shouldn't be doing this" and that takes practice. Experience of all shapes and sizes is a good thing, and if you want to be making PIC decisions, 135 is a good way to start making them early in your career - hell, you can start making those decisions as early as 500 hours. That said, working 135 isn't the only way to get quality experience - hell, the guys flying for Colgan back in the day or whoever is doing it now, were getting some damn good experience by blasting around the Northeast in the ice and in the weather. But one thing 135 offers is a quick road to PIC in airplanes that are just complicated enough to kill you if you don't pay attention. Does it build bad habits? Maybe, but chances are that after 500hrs on the line at 121-Max-Airline that even the hardest freight dawg will have become cultured, because if he hasn't by then, he'll likely have been fired.

I am not sure why we keep going around in circles on this when you guys haven't flown 121 or even 135 pax for a highly structured operation.

Go tell the 121 regional crews on the east coast that you're more proficient than they are at shooting approaches. I look forward to hearing about how hard they laugh.

I hate to break it to you but "push button" approaches, automation and glass cockpits are the future, actually they are 25 years old, and hand flying /A IFR and approaches makes you really good at hand flying /A IFR and approaches. It does nothing to prepare you to fly a modern aircraft in a modern environment other than general IFR practices and knowledge. I don't know why one side is considered a skill and the other is not. Again its awesome that you guys can get together and high five over being so skilled and awesome but the rest of the industry just laughs at the ignorance. Just ask the former freight dawgs at the airlines that nobody will hang out with on an overnight

 

[Cal Goat]

I am not sure why we keep going around in circles on this when you guys haven't flown 121 or even 135 pax for a highly structured operation.

Go tell the 121 regional crews on the east coast that you're more proficient than they are at shooting approaches. I look forward to hearing about how hard they laugh.

I hate to break it to you but "push button" approaches, automation and glass cockpits are the future, actually they are 25 years old, and hand flying /A IFR and approaches makes you really good at hand flying /A IFR and approaches. It does nothing to prepare you to fly a modern aircraft in a modern environment other than general IFR practices and knowledge. I don't know why one side is considered a skill and the other is not. Again its awesome that you guys can get together and high five over being so skilled and awesome but the rest of the industry just laughs at the ignorance. Just ask the former freight dawgs at the airlines that nobody will hang out with on an overnight

Well it's hard not to feel pity, especially when they look so thirsty at the bar.

 

[ppragman]

I am not sure why we keep going around in circles on this when you guys haven't flown 121 or even 135 pax for a highly structured operation.

Go tell the 121 regional crews on the east coast that you're more proficient than they are at shooting approaches. I look forward to hearing about how hard they laugh.

I hate to break it to you but "push button" approaches, automation and glass cockpits are the future, actually they are 25 years old, and hand flying /A IFR and approaches makes you really good at hand flying /A IFR and approaches. It does nothing to prepare you to fly a modern aircraft in a modern environment. Again its awesome that you guys can get together and high five over being so skilled and awesome but the rest of the industry just laughs at the ignorance. Just ask the former freight dawgs at the airlines that nobody will hang out with on an overnight

Dude, I haven't flown 121, but I have flown for "highly structured operations," with risk assessments, restrictions on what we can do, "real" dispatch with shared authority and more. Hell, I've even been a part of trying to make it better at every operation I've been at for the last 5 years or so. I know very much what is wrong with 135, and there's lots wrong, but saying it's not good experience is silly - it's great experience. Is it better than flying 121? Not really, but I think the case could be made that a guy flying a bunch of approaches in antiquated airplanes at 1200 is likely better at flying approaches than a guy who flew as an FO under 121 flying very few approaches. After a couple thousand hours, I don't think it matters much, but it's a good reservoir of experience to draw from.

As for regional 121 crews on the east coast, I wouldn't say that, why? Because I've been in Hawaii for the last couple years, they're wayyyyy more proficient than I am...which is what I even said in the post since you didn't bother to read it. I'm not saying there isn't truth in what you're saying, I'm saying that there are some required basic instrument and decision making skills that can be made strong by flying 135 early in your career.

Of course push button approaches, automation, and glass cockpits are the future - and guess what, you know where I saw the advanced automation technology in the airplane first? Alaska. Freight had abysmally crummy and antiquated equipment - that's not a compliment to freight, it was hard, and wasn't a lot of fun when the weather sucked, but I certainly learned how to navigate around with a VOR and an HSI in the weather, do I want to go back to it? No, hell no. Heck! I was even a little bummed when I went from synthetic vision, and touch screen garmins to a single Garmin 400 when I came here.

 

[Tommay85]

I'm surely not worthy of flying the mighty San Antonio Sewer Pipe.

Everyone is worthy! As long as your prepared to accept that control inputs don't necessarily do anything sometimes, it's a good/fun/not a big deal airplane. Haha

I'll still always be an egotistical • about it though.

The 120 has the potential to be a much worse day in all honesty. Just not as likely.

 

[Cal Goat]

The Bro was an interesting airplane. I'm glad I flew it, but I haven't missed it since my last flight.