Takeoff below landing minimums?

Personal experience, I'd probably go if I was comfortable with the exact plane. Some are better than others in freight... haha 4 years ago, I'd blast off in a 210 in just about anything. Now, multi only. I'm old(er), don't really care about the operation THAT much anymore, and I have a miniature lion at home that needs to be fed whithin a couple days. :)

Personally, I've gone down to 2 stripes of visibility. BE-58, no hazardous obstacles, numerous airports 20 miles to the north with good weather, ect.. fairly favorable. Taxiing was more terrifying to be honest.

That being said:
Safe
Legal
Efficient

In that order. I've never gotten any grief from management at two freight companies for saying "no" or erring on the side of caution. Only other pilots have ever given me any crap... :)
 
Personal experience, I'd probably go if I was comfortable with the exact plane. Some are better than others in freight... haha 4 years ago, I'd blast off in a 210 in just about anything. Now, multi only. I'm old(er), don't really care about the operation THAT much anymore, and I have a miniature lion at home that needs to be fed whithin a couple days. :)

Personally, I've gone down to 2 stripes of visibility. BE-58, no hazardous obstacles, numerous airports 20 miles to the north with good weather, ect.. fairly favorable. Taxiing was more terrifying to be honest.

That being said:
Safe
Legal
Efficient

In that order. I've never gotten any grief from management at two freight companies for saying "no" or erring on the side of caution. Only other pilots have ever given me any crap... :)
That's cause you're a little girl that is afraid of thunder!
 
In general, you're paid the big (or small) bucks to make PIC decisions. Sometimes what is being asked is outside of what you've been trained for/have past experience with. Err on the side of caution, ALWAYS. I can't stress this enough.

There is a bit more subjectivity the farther from most part 121 ops. Your decisions fall more on you and the regs get more grey. If you're uncomfortable due to lack of experience, you need to assertively voice it and stick to your guns. If you get reprimanded, find a different company. There's PLENTY of blood that has been shed before you that paint this picture. The FAA is catastrofically hinduring safety in this sector. Even Ameriflight isn't that awful. You may get attitude from the idiot line pilots and crappy ACPs, but you won't get disciplined.

Anytime the company references the POI, I would just quit. Haven't met one yet that I didn't think was an idiot, to put it bluntly... :)
 
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In general, you're paid the big (or small) bucks to make PIC decisions. Sometimes what is being asked is outside of what you've been trained for/have past experience with. Err on the side of caution, ALWAYS. I can't stress this enough.

There is a bit more subjectivity the farther from most part 121 ops. Your decisions fall more on you and the regs get more grey. If you're uncomfortable due to lack of experience, you need to assertively voice it and stick to your guns. If you get reprimanded, find a different company. There's PLENTY of blood that has been shed before you that paint this picture. The FAA is catastrofically hinduring safety in this sector. Even Ameriflight isn't that awful. You may get attitude from the idiot line pilots and crappy ACPs, but you won't get disciplined.

Anytime the company references the POI, I would just quit. Haven't met one yet that I didn't think was an idiot, to put it bluntly... :)
I hear the BQN ACP is especially crappy. Don't go there.
 
Personal experience, I'd probably go if I was comfortable with the exact plane. Some are better than others in freight... haha 4 years ago, I'd blast off in a 210 in just about anything. Now, multi only. I'm old(er), don't really care about the operation THAT much anymore, and I have a miniature lion at home that needs to be fed whithin a couple days. :)

Personally, I've gone down to 2 stripes of visibility. BE-58, no hazardous obstacles, numerous airports 20 miles to the north with good weather, ect.. fairly favorable. Taxiing was more terrifying to be honest.

That being said:
Safe
Legal
Efficient

In that order. I've never gotten any grief from management at two freight companies for saying "no" or erring on the side of caution. Only other pilots have ever given me any crap... :)
That is usually how it goes. I've personally never seen anyone pushed to do anything they weren't comfortable with by AMF management, but some of their peers have given them grief for not doing it.
 
I believe if the customer is paying for the repo, it can be considered 135, but I guess it's up to the poi. I probably would go in this scenario.
No, it's not. I've done plenty of training on repo legs where we were flying to pick up the freight. Then swapped seats with a qualified pilot who flew the live legs.
 
No, it's not. I've done plenty of training on repo legs where we were flying to pick up the freight. Then swapped seats with a qualified pilot who flew the live legs.

I agree. I believe that by definition, it must have freight on board for hire to count as a 135 leg. Repositioning to pick up freight in my mind has always been a "ferry flight" as long as I have been around. Have various operators just been pulling the wool over my eyes throughout the years, or does someone have a chief counsel opinion.
 
I agree. I believe that by definition, it must have freight on board for hire to count as a 135 leg. Repositioning to pick up freight in my mind has always been a "ferry flight" as long as I have been around. Have various operators just been pulling the wool over my eyes throughout the years, or does someone have a chief counsel opinion.
What if someone chartered you to fly an empty airplane from ABC to XYZ.
Or what if say someone hired you to fly an empty airplane with cameras to aerial photography?

Part 91.
 
I'm going to preface this by saying I'm WS's old CP at his current gig.

There is no such thing as a Part 91 repo flight in this case. The customer in this case is paying for the trip on a daily basis (actually a monthly basis based on a daily rate, plus your applicable charter fees because of your particular route). Your customer pays for your flight from A-B even in the case of an empty reposition (just like in the AM if you don't have freight). Because of this, an empty leg doesn't constitute a 91 leg, despite what the company might tell you.

Think of it this way. Company A contracts Company B to fly a charter from Y to Z. They reposition from X to Y, pick up freight, and fly to Z. X to Y is without a doubt a 135 flight. This is no different. The customer is paying for you to fly from point A to B, whether there is freight on board or not.

The only legit 91 flights you do are for training or for example when you repo that thing for the engine swap. Those are fully paid for directly by the company, not a customer.

_____________________________

In regard to the question posed here concerning whether “positioning flights” conducted may be conducted under Part 91, which one contributor believes cannot be done, stating that any such flight must be construed to fall under Part 135, that is not consistent with FAA legal interpretations.

The FAA Office of Chief Counsel regularly responds to questions of legal interpretations, issuing letters on a variety of topics useful to pilots. Users may access such legal interpretations at the FAA website: (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/RIIndex.cfm),
Or, just google FAA HomeOfficesChief CounselPolicy & AdjudicationRegulations.

In particular, the Office of Chief Counsel has provided helpful guidance on this question. In a letter dated January 5, 2011, to Mr. Wesley C. Converse, Director of Flight Operations of Red Wing Aircraft, Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations, AGC-200, states clearly that “ 119.1(e)(3) establishes that certain ferry (e.g…“positioning”) flights may be conducted under Part 91. “ Here is a link to the interpretation:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2011/converse-redwingaeroplane%20-%20(2011)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Not only has the Office of Chief Counsel spoken to the question in the form of an interpretation, but the Administrator has made the very argument in at least one past case. See FAA Order No. 95-8, May 9, 1995 (Docket Nos. CP93WP005), “In the Matter of Charter Airlines, Inc., James E. Walker, and Larry A. Mort,” at pp. 18-19, stating “Complainant (e.g..the Administrator) also refers to FAA-written interpretations of the relevant regulations to prove that while Section 135.1(b)(3) provides that ferry flights are not governed by Part 135, ferry flights nonetheless may be considered as other commercial flying under the flight time limitations.” (emphasis added)

What this means is that such flights which are not engaged in common carriage (that is, “carrying passengers or cargo for compensation or hire.” See 14 CFR 119.21(a)(4) and (5) for further explanation) are not in themselves construed to fall under Part 135, and thus may indeed operate under Part 91 for purposes of regulatory compliance (that is, weather minimums, pilot qualifications, etc.). However, the pilot, if being paid for such pilot time, must count the time as “other commercial flight time” for purposes of compliance with flight time limitations. (Such limitations as appear under 135.265 or .267)

But, that is very different from believing an empty, repositioning, or ferry flight must operate under Part 135.
It is not, according to the Office of Chief Counsel.
 
But, that is very different from believing an empty, repositioning, or ferry flight must operate under Part 135.
It is not, according to the Office of Chief Counsel.

The argument being made is that it is Part 135 if the customer is paying for the aircraft to move. The Chief Counsel opinion that you linked does not make any mention of whether the flight in question is revenue vs non-revenue.
 
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The argument being made is that it is Part 135 if the customer is paying for the aircraft to move. The Chief Counsel opinion that you linked does not make any mention of whether the flight in question is revenue vs non-revenue.
Yes. It also says that certain ferry flights may be operated under Part 91. Not really a definitive answer. Maybe @MidlifeFlyer knows of a better reference.
 
Yes. It also says that certain ferry flights may be operated under Part 91. Not really a definitive answer. Maybe @MidlifeFlyer knows of a better reference.
I saw the alert. I take it the question is whether repositioning or ferry flights are subject to Part 135 or whether they can be conducted under Part 91. I can't give a definitive yes or no, but I don't think you are going to find much more than what @YakatakXXL pointed to.

Nothing says in specific words "a repositioning flight is under Part 91 whether or not the customer is paying for it" but the history of Chief Counsel opinions and FAA enforcement actions going back into the 1980s suggests this is the case, with the distinction being "carrying persons or property for compensation or hire" rather than simply who is paying for the flight.

FWIW, that makes sense to me since the purpose of Part 135 rules is to protect the "persons or property" being carried, not the crew or aircraft. If you think about it, the the inclusion of Part 91 flight for compensation in the duty time rules fits as well.
 
Well, conducting operations under part 91 or part 135 is one thing, but using 91 and 135 to dodge duty and rest limitations is another. Our GOM specifies visibility and operational criteria for conducting 91 and 135 legs, and it is perfectly legal to operate a repositioning flight part 91. Yes protecting passengers and property is one thing, and that is why 135 and 121 are more restrictive in those cases. The biggest issue IMHO are companies that use part 91 legs in the front to not count duty which is completely false and illegal.
 
Well, conducting operations under part 91 or part 135 is one thing, but using 91 and 135 to dodge duty and rest limitations is another. Our GOM specifies visibility and operational criteria for conducting 91 and 135 legs, and it is perfectly legal to operate a repositioning flight part 91. Yes protecting passengers and property is one thing, and that is why 135 and 121 are more restrictive in those cases. The biggest issue IMHO are companies that use part 91 legs in the front to not count duty which is completely false and illegal.


"Midlife" is correct; the purpose of Part 135 is to provide certain operating and maintenance rules for "carrying passengers or cargo for hire." Analogies sometimes help; imagine your C-185 flew a load of fish into ANC or FAI, but then towed a banner back home (for the same customer). The "fish flight" carrying "cargo...for hire" is obviously under Part 135, while the return flight towing "fish guy's" advertising banner is not (see 14 CFR 119.1(e) for the list of exceptions). The fact the same customer paid for both flights does not change the clearly different purpose(s) of the two flights, and result is different regulations become controlling.

Likewise, the issue of "duty time" becomes a lot clearer if one simply reads the rule carefully, and notes there is simply no such thing as "duty time records" under Part 135. Instead, operators (and pilots) are simply required to obtain two things: (a) a "rest period," which has repeatedly been defined as "prospective (known in advance), continuous, and free of all duty..." and (b) a "day off" (which differs under the .265 and .267 rule). That is it....Not only as the regulation states, but as affirmed by (again) the Office of Chief Counsel, who issued a legal interpretation to Nebraska based Suburban Air Freight, dated July 12, 2014. Here's a link: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/gallup - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf

If you read closely, comparing the two rules (that is, .265 to .276,) the "rest period" is basically 9-in-24 hours preceding the scheduled completion of the flight, (a very important point), under both, but the "day(s) off" change from .265 "scheduled" operators, to a dozen or so per quarter for .267 "on demand" operators. Either way, there is no such thing as a requirement to make or maintain a huge, long set of clock-times listing when you went on or off "duty" (meaning you simply ended your "rest period.") 'Taint so.
Worse, there are operators being told they have to maintain "management duty time" logs, supposedly to show what time management/pilots came into the office. Completely mis-guided, and nonsense. But to "inverted's" point, the rule requiring "rest" periods/days off is found in text separate...separate...from the rule requiring "flight time records" (e.g...8 hours in 24, 34 per week, 1200 per year, etc etc) for tracking, quantitatively, how many hours someone flew. That is a very different requirement, and a very different purpose from ensuring "rest." For that reason, the requirement for "recordkeeping" lies with the "flight time limitations" found in separate paragraphs, and there are no such "records" required for "duty time" (a term which does not exist under Part 135, and instead there are repeatedly portions which refer to "rest periods" and "rest required"). What there is, if "inverted" is patiently still with us, is a requirement to include all "other commercial flight time" in the required "flight time records" which quantify one's total flight time by day, week, month, quarter, and year totals. It is not "135" time, for the very reason "Midlife" noted. But assuming one is paid, it is nonetheless "other commercial flight time" and must be included in one's "flight time" record for the year.

Then, look again at the way total time "per day" is constructed:
"if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—".
What that means is a ferry/positioning/banner-towing/photography flight which is "other commercial flight time" DOES count toward a pilot's total daily, weekly, monthly, yearly total, quantitative limits.....but...and here is the difference "inverted" may be looking for, is that such a flight of, say, 3 hours, would be counted toward his/her "8-in-24" hours that day, but if it PRECEDED a Part 135 flight, would then limit his/her remaining time to (eight minus three) five hours (nominally) Part 135 time for that day. On the other hand, he/she could fly a full 8 hours Part 135 flight time, and then tow banners, or instruct, or do cloud seeding or photography....and only be concerned with 91 issues. Short version: positioning before a 135 flight limits your 135 time, positioning after (or ferry, etc) is NOT 135 and does not pose any kind of "duty time" issue with respect to Part 135. (again, there is no such thing under 135)
The key here is to read closely, and look at the language of your applicable regulation (.265 or .267).
And, it is good to see careful reading....it keeps us all inside the white lines.
 
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"Midlife" is correct; the purpose of Part 135 is to provide certain operating and maintenance rules for "carrying passengers or cargo for hire." Analogies sometimes help; imagine your C-185 flew a load of fish into ANC or FAI, but then towed a banner back home (for the same customer). The "fish flight" carrying "cargo...for hire" is obviously under Part 135, while the return flight towing "fish guy's" advertising banner is not (see 14 CFR 119.1(e) for the list of exceptions). The fact the same customer paid for both flights does not change the clearly different purpose(s) of the two flights, and result is different regulations become controlling.

Likewise, the issue of "duty time" becomes a lot clearer if one simply reads the rule carefully, and notes there is simply no such thing as "duty time records" under Part 135. Instead, operators (and pilots) are simply required to obtain two things: (a) a "rest period," which has repeatedly been defined as "prospective (known in advance), continuous, and free of all duty..." and (b) a "day off" (which differs under the .265 and .267 rule). That is it....Not only as the regulation states, but as affirmed by (again) the Office of Chief Counsel, who issued a legal interpretation to Nebraska based Suburban Air Freight, dated July 12, 2014. Here's a link: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/gallup - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf

If you read closely, comparing the two rules (that is, .265 to .276,) the "rest period" is basically 9-in-24 hours preceding the scheduled completion of the flight, (a very important point), under both, but the "day(s) off" change from .265 "scheduled" operators, to a dozen or so per quarter for .267 "on demand" operators. Either way, there is no such thing as a requirement to make or maintain a huge, long set of clock-times listing when you went on or off "duty" (meaning you simply ended your "rest period.") 'Taint so.
Worse, there are operators being told they have to maintain "management duty time" logs, supposedly to show what time management/pilots came into the office. Completely mis-guided, and nonsense. But to "inverted's" point, the rule requiring "rest" periods/days off is found in text separate...separate...from the rule requiring "flight time records" (e.g...8 hours in 24, 34 per week, 1200 per year, etc etc) for tracking, quantitatively, how many hours someone flew. That is a very different requirement, and a very different purpose from ensuring "rest." For that reason, the requirement for "recordkeeping" lies with the "flight time limitations" found in separate paragraphs, and there are no such "records" required for "duty time" (a term which does not exist under Part 135, and instead there are repeatedly portions which refer to "rest periods" and "rest required"). What there is, if "inverted" is patiently still with us, is a requirement to include all "other commercial flight time" in the required "flight time records" which quantify one's total flight time by day, week, month, quarter, and year totals. It is not "135" time, for the very reason "Midlife" noted. But assuming one is paid, it is nonetheless "other commercial flight time" and must be included in one's "flight time" record for the year.

Then, look again at the way total time "per day" is constructed:
"if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—".
What that means is a ferry/positioning/banner-towing/photography flight which is "other commercial flight time" DOES count toward a pilot's total daily, weekly, monthly, yearly total, quantitative limits.....but...and here is the difference "inverted" may be looking for, is that such a flight of, say, 3 hours, would be counted toward his/her "8-in-24" hours that day, but if it PRECEDED a Part 135 flight, would then limit his/her remaining time to (eight minus three) five hours (nominally) Part 135 time for that day. On the other hand, he/she could fly a full 8 hours Part 135 flight time, and then tow banners, or instruct, or do cloud seeding or photography....and only be concerned with 91 issues. Short version: positioning before a 135 flight limits your 135 time, positioning after (or ferry, etc) is NOT 135 and does not pose any kind of "duty time" issue with respect to Part 135. (again, there is no such thing under 135)
The key here is to read closely, and look at the language of your applicable regulation (.265 or .267).
And, it is good to see careful reading....it keeps us all inside the white lines.

You are correct. Theoretically, I can spread out my part 91 "for hire" flight instruction from 12AM Monday til 11:59PM Monday, then do it again every day all week. As long as I don't exceed 8 hours of actual flight in my flight training, I'm good to go.
You are also correct about the reporting requirements. But, uh, er, that seems a tough argument to make to your CP when s/he has an FAA inspector who is "requiring" her/him to keep such records.
 
BTDT.

Turn off your phone, go get breakfast, have an extra cup or two of coffee, grab a muffin, take the long way back to the field.

If it's still bad, go out for an early lunch.

Our rule of thumb back in my freight days was if you spent more than 10 minutes trying to figure out how to go, you should stay on the ground. And if you spent more than 10 minutes trying to figure how not to go you were in the wrong line of work.

Worked every time.
 
Then you have a limited understanding of how the real 135 works.

Personal experience, I'd probably go if I was comfortable with the exact plane. Some are better than others in freight... haha 4 years ago, I'd blast off in a 210 in just about anything. Now, multi only. I'm old(er), don't really care about the operation THAT much anymore, and I have a miniature lion at home that needs to be fed whithin a couple days. :)

Personally, I've gone down to 2 stripes of visibility. BE-58, no hazardous obstacles, numerous airports 20 miles to the north with good weather, ect.. fairly favorable. Taxiing was more terrifying to be honest.

That being said:
Safe
Legal
Efficient

In that order. I've never gotten any grief from management at two freight companies for saying "no" or erring on the side of caution. Only other pilots have ever given me any crap... :)

Now that I have some distance from my 135 freight days, it's painfully obvious why companies hire either low time guys or guys that couldn't get hired anywhere else. 135 freight wouldn't happen efficiently or viably if the pilots had the same level of judgement as guys who had been in 121 (or had respectable labor representation) for any length of time. It's the difference between be able to say "I guess I can do this" and "This is stupid, I'm going home".

AMF OAK had a somewhat notorious scud-run-from-the-big-airport-to-the-little-airport approach that I absolutely loathed. It was technically legal, but I know that myself and other pilots occasionally pushed the boundary a bit on what might have been legal or safe. Not getting to the little airport meant "punishment" in the sense that your drivers would complain and the base manager would be calling you incessantly until the weather had improved to repo the airplane.

For me it became an upsetting reminder that I needed to GTFO of that company but I know for a lot of other guys it was a bit of measuring contest and they loved to talk about how low they flew or whatever.

Sometimes I get a peak at a very senior AMF pilot's facebook page and see his pontificating about how 121 pilots are lesser aviators than the sky-gods of the 135 world and his legion of loyal followers agree with him vocally (dissenters like @Inverted are banned from his page). But now that I have lived in both worlds, I see that for the worthless tripe that it is. Safety and professionalism are definitively higher in the 121 world, without question.

TLDR: I would not fly a single engine Caravan off of a below-135-mins runway for the wages and QOL that the OP is probably suffering through.
 
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