Stopping the Slide

So, based on the fact that the TA passed, all Delta pilots have no right to tell anyone to take a stand. BS. Those that voted against the TA DID take a stand. Unfortunately, they were just outweighed by the others (or the ones that didn't care).

I thought Mesaba was a court hearing and hence an imposed contract. I don't think ALPA gets to sign it - it just is what the court says it is. It would be nice to see some backbone at the top, but I don't think this is it.
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Actually, the court ruling was that the company can throw out the currend CBA and possibly impose what they want. It hasn't happened yet, but general thought is if there is a contract imposed, the pilots will walk. If the company imposes a contract, you can bet it's gonna be a 19% pay cut. ALPA has to sign any contract that is negotiated between the pilot group and management, and ALPA national has said they won't sign anything with that big of a pay cut.

if you want to bash Mesa start another "Mesa Sucks" thread and take your childish antics over there and I promise not to respond.
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First off, no one put a gun to your head and said "Work at Mesa." You chose to go there. Now, if you did so knowing what was up there, that's cool. If you didn't do the research, oh well. I have to put up being lumped in with Gulfstreamers, CAPT and RAA guys. You have to put up with this. It's the price we pay for flying for our respective regionals. It's up to us to try to change the way people view those regionals. Mesa is viewed as a bottom feeder that caves to lower the bar. You're really not helping the image.
 
CFIseForMesa said:
Look, the Mesa pilot group deserves almost all the crap that gets thrown at them, although next time we're busting our ass trying to get you in the jump seat try to remember to tell the captain what you think of him so I can stop trying to find half weights and working with the ramp to figure out which bags really are heavy or which ones can be left behind.
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This quote needs a sarcasm tag! But I love the punch line. How many times did I fudge weights to get a jumpseater on board? Oh only about 5 times a week!

Including Delta, AA, United, USAirways and other mainline pilots! Who would then give me crap about flying a regional jet!

:mad:
 
CFIse said:
If the PSA guys take the flying and the blended rate is lower than Mesa then it might hurt us in negotiations. But remember, Mesa is not in bankruptcy and while the industry isn't exactly strong, Mesa is doing just fine (whether you believe that's on the backs of their employees or not). There were a lot of issues around the last Mesa contract that were not just related to getting more airplanes that put the ALPA negotiators in a difficult position. They are working from a position of more strength this time around (assuming JO doesn't blow up the company before we get to a contract).

Most of the companies taking concessions at the moment are in bankruptcy, near bankruptcy or owned by an airline in bankruptcy or at the mercy of an airline that owns their aircraft. Mesa is not in any of those positions.
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PSA isnt in BK, is it?? and they fly for the same company Mesa does.
 
kellwolf said:
So, based on the fact that the TA passed, all Delta pilots have no right to tell anyone to take a stand. BS. Those that voted against the TA DID take a stand. Unfortunately, they were just outweighed by the others (or the ones that didn't care).
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That's not the way it works - you either live by the union and die by the union or you get the hell out of the union and negotiate your own deal. The Delta pilot group did what they did, people who are a member of that have to stand by the end decision. You don't get to say "I like this decision so I stand with the group, but I don't like this decision so you're all idiots". Well you do get to say it, but it's not very credible.

Anyway - the original point, lost in the mists of time, was that there are a ny number of other pilot groups who didn't hold the line on pay, so expecting PSA or Mesaba to take the stand is hypocritical (at the very least) by those pilot groups. There are people who can make that point (and correct, nobody at Mesa is in that group) but there's a WHOLE bunch of people who don't get to make it.

Actually, the court ruling was that the company can throw out the currend CBA and possibly impose what they want. It hasn't happened yet, but general thought is if there is a contract imposed, the pilots will walk. If the company imposes a contract, you can bet it's gonna be a 19% pay cut. ALPA has to sign any contract that is negotiated between the pilot group and management, and ALPA national has said they won't sign anything with that big of a pay cut.
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And in my opinon the general thought is wrong - the pilots won't walk, they'll work the imposed contract. I suspect both sides of that argument are backed so far into a corner we'll really find out the answer when it happens.

ALPA has to sign a negotiated contract - an imposed contract isn't negotiated and, as far as I know, doesn't need signing (or if it is signed is signed under the threat of fines and jail). If there is a negotiated contract and ALPA doesn't sign it, then it's back to the court imposed contract etc.

First off, no one put a gun to your head and said "Work at Mesa." You chose to go there. Now, if you did so knowing what was up there, that's cool. If you didn't do the research, oh well. I have to put up being lumped in with Gulfstreamers, CAPT and RAA guys. You have to put up with this. It's the price we pay for flying for our respective regionals. It's up to us to try to change the way people view those regionals. Mesa is viewed as a bottom feeder that caves to lower the bar. You're really not helping the image.
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Have you heard me complain? In fact as I pointed out earlier I think, I had other offers and CHOSE to come and work at Mesa - I know that makes you sick to your stomach, but there you go.

I don't understand why you think I'm not changing the image of Mesa, although my participation in this thread isn't anything to do with where I work. All I'm saying is I think, or my opinion is, this or that will happen. Doesn't mean I like it or think it's the "best thing for the profession" but I've been around a while, especially around humans, and I've seen how people act and make decisions.
 
blee256 said:
PSA isnt in BK, is it?? and they fly for the same company Mesa does.
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PSA is a wholly owned - if you can't make a wholly owned do what you want then what's the point of owning them? So my argument is that if PSA doesn't take the 900s then they will soon cease to exist (or rather the certificate will live on plonked on some grounded 1900 somewhere but the flying will be gone). The PSA pilots see that, realise that now is not the time to take a stand and fight, so they'll take the 900s at the crappy rate and the poor work rules and live to fight another day. Like Delta, NorthWest, United, US Air, American etc. etc.

This may not be the best thing for "the good of the industry", but if you're a PSA pilot the "good of the industry" ain't putting food on the table or paying the mortgage.

As I think I posted MUCH earlier, while I still think Mesaba will take whatever contract gets imposed on them, they probably are the best chance of taking a stand, futile as it may be, because at the rates the company wants they won't be able to put food on the table or make their share of the rent payment. But hey, they're building time for a better job, which is why I think they'll take what gets imposed.
 
CFIse said:
That's not the way it works - you either live by the union and die by the union or you get the hell out of the union and negotiate your own deal. The Delta pilot group did what they did, people who are a member of that have to stand by the end decision. You don't get to say "I like this decision so I stand with the group, but I don't like this decision so you're all idiots". Well you do get to say it, but it's not very credible.
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Just like if you voted Libertarian last election you aren't allowed to speak up against anything going on in the Administration that you voted against? You either live by the decisions of the majority or you get the heck out? Give me a frickin break.

:whatever:
 
CFIse said:
You seem to think I don't think the Delta pilots should have signed the contract? You'd be wrong, I think they should have for a variety of reasons. Go back to the top of the thread.
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Uhh, you know, you're actually arguing with a guy who knows far, FAAAAAAR more about this than you may know. I'd tell you his background, but that's not my call.
 
CFIse said:
That's not the way it works - you either live by the union and die by the union or you get the hell out of the union and negotiate your own deal. The Delta pilot group did what they did, people who are a member of that have to stand by the end decision. You don't get to say "I like this decision so I stand with the group, but I don't like this decision so you're all idiots". Well you do get to say it, but it's not very credible.
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Yeah, they have to live with the decision, but they don't have to shut the F up about it. I give Doug and the rest of the guys props for trying to stand up for what they believe in, I don't say "You guys suck because you didn't stop the pay slide." They did the best they could. To go along with what SteveC said, I didn't vote for Bush in the last election, so I'm sure as hell not gonna shut up and take the crap that's going on. I have to live with the fact that he's in office, but that doesn't mean I have to get in line with everyone else that DID vote for him.

Anyway - the original point, lost in the mists of time, was that there are a ny number of other pilot groups who didn't hold the line on pay, so expecting PSA or Mesaba to take the stand is hypocritical (at the very least) by those pilot groups. There are people who can make that point (and correct, nobody at Mesa is in that group) but there's a WHOLE bunch of people who don't get to make it.
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See above. IMO, if you voted "no" on the TA, then you have every right to cheer on the other guys. Just b/c the other side outweighed you doesn't mean you AGREE with the guys that voted "yes." I mean, that would mean that you're partially responsible for the low bar b/c you currently work under the Mesa CBA, right? I mean, you're on the same side as the guys that voted that contract in b/c you're working under it, right? That's the kind of logic you're using.


And in my opinon the general thought is wrong - the pilots won't walk, they'll work the imposed contract. I suspect both sides of that argument are backed so far into a corner we'll really find out the answer when it happens.
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So, you're saying these guys will work poverty wages instead of walking to find a better job? Sorry, I have more faith in my fellow Red Tail pilots, I guess.
 
CFIse said:
Unless I read it wrong you started this thread - and in the initial message it was all about pay.

I still think the PSA pilots will take the deal - they may not like it, but they won't like the alternatives any better. Try to remember I don't WANT them to take the deal, I just think they will.
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you can take your foot out of your mouth any time now...
 
Well looks like the PSA pilots did vote against the 900s at current rates. Good for them.

I was wrong.

We'll see what happens next.
 
----I used Delta et. al. as an example of pilot groups -----

Is this a new codeshare with delta and that isreali airline? How is the war effecting it?
 
You know that episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets a job teaching endzone dances? That's me right now.
 
2 one way tickets to Detriot. Sorry you didn't get the first prize which was 1 round trip ticket to DTW.

</post count bump>
 
I saw over on that "other" pilot message board that Chautauqua is adding the 200 to it's equipment/domicile bids. Even if they don't try to take some of our flying now I wouldn't be surprised to see them bid for some of it in the future.
 
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