Stopping the Slide

[derg]

So there wasn't a lot of talk from Delta pilots about how there was no way they'd accept the TA, Delta pilots didn't clean out their lockers and take there stuff home in preparation for a strike and the Delta pilots didn't ratify the TA anyway and all just go back to work.

My mistake, must have been another Delta I was thinking of.

With all due respect, if you've got a question, ask it. But when you think you know about a situation and actually don't, it's not really kosher to act as if you do.

Ok, this particular post.

The "clean out your locker" thing was showing management that if they pressed a strike, we were prepared. It was a psychological move because when you saw the number of empty lockers, quite frankly, some in the company pooped their pants and it had the intended effect for the most part.

Only 61% of the pilot group ratified the "Turkey". I wasn't among that 61%

In fact, a lot of us simply didn't 'go back to work' because 1 out of every 6 recalled pilots are electing to return, we're losing about an FO every week to non-aviation jobs and a lot of people simply left for other opportunities, including my good pal that got a gig as the senior advisor for the New Iraqi Air Force.

I feel where you're coming from, but you don't have a basic understanding of what went on at Delta so that tends to make me think you maybe don't have a grasp on the other issues you're discussing.

The beauty of the internet is that if you've got a question about a particular facet of aviation, there's usually someone with first-hand experience in which you could ask.

 

[EDUC8-or]

I feel where you're coming from, but you don't have a basic understanding of what went on at Delta so that tends to make me think you maybe don't have a grasp on the other issues you're discussing.

I have to agree here, I love being told how things would have gone down at my company from someone who doesn't even work here.

 

[BobDDuck]

Well, looks like Ethan will get a chance to personally vote his opinion on the -900s.

Actually, I won't. The voting roster is made up of people who as of July 1st are either members in good standing, executive members, or members in bad standing but have a grievence filed. I don't hit my one year date until July 25th and hence will not be on the roster. It sort of sucks that I won't be able to cast my "no" vote, but that's how ALPA does things so I will be sitting this one out.

 

[CFIse]

Only 61% of the pilot group ratified the "Turkey". I wasn't among that 61%

In fact, a lot of us simply didn't 'go back to work' because 1 out of every 6 recalled pilots are electing to return, we're losing about an FO every week to non-aviation jobs and a lot of people simply left for other opportunities, including my good pal that got a gig as the senior advisor for the New Iraqi Air Force.

This was never a personal discussion about you - the Delta pilot group failed to hold the line - they drew a line, but when push came to shove they erased it and slid back. If you didn't vote for it, good for you, but the Delta pilot group did vote for it.

The union movement was, of course, built on the kind of industrial action where the people in the union vote in a concessionary contract and then individually leave the industry to work somewhere else. Give me a break. If your idea of the Delta pilots holding the line on compensation means accepting the contract and then quitting the industry then no wonder we've got a problem.

The original post was about the Mesaba pilots striking to send a message about pilot compensation. Yet how can we expect the Mesaba pilots to hold the line when, after buckets of rhetoric, the Delta pilots wouldn't step up and do it.

I'm sorry, you may believe that the Delta pilots really showed somebody in the last round of actions, but I don't, and I don't know many who do. I know a LOT of people, me included, who understand WHY the Delta pilots did what they did. The bottom line however, if your pilot group can't hold the line on pilot compensation then you don't get to climb up on your pedastal and preach how other pilot groups ought to get out there and do something you weren't willing to do.

 

[CFIse]

Mesaba, will they stirke? I dont know. I would like to think yes, if management doesnt stop overreaching with their unrealistic demands.

If PSA takes the -900 flying. it might hurt you guys in negotiations. I dont know waht your -900 payrates are, and I dont know what PSA management is asking for. But if its lower than yourcurrent payrate, dont you think JO will be going after you guys for concessions when your next contract comes around?

and how are you gonna talk about Mesa getting an improved contract with the attitude you have now?

I would like to think the Mesaba pilots would strike - but I don't think they will. I guess this is a fundamental position I'm not getting across to anybody. What I'd LIKE to happen and what I THINK will happen are 2 different things. Most people here are talking about what they'd LIKE to happen. I think the Mesaba pilots won't strike because of enlightened self interest. And at the risk of upsetting Doug even more, that's why the Delta pilot group didn't strike - they liked working for a lower contract than they liked being out on the street.

If the PSA guys take the flying and the blended rate is lower than Mesa then it might hurt us in negotiations. But remember, Mesa is not in bankruptcy and while the industry isn't exactly strong, Mesa is doing just fine (whether you believe that's on the backs of their employees or not). There were a lot of issues around the last Mesa contract that were not just related to getting more airplanes that put the ALPA negotiators in a difficult position. They are working from a position of more strength this time around (assuming JO doesn't blow up the company before we get to a contract).

Most of the companies taking concessions at the moment are in bankruptcy, near bankruptcy or owned by an airline in bankruptcy or at the mercy of an airline that owns their aircraft. Mesa is not in any of those positions.

I'm not naive enough to think Mesa will have an industry leading contract, I am, perhaps, naive enough to believe that at the moment ALPA is dealing from a position of strength at Mesa and can improve the contract.

 

[CFIse]

The beauty of the internet is that if you've got a question about a particular facet of aviation, there's usually someone with first-hand experience in which you could ask.

Well great - please explain to me what happened at Delta. Please emphasiss in your response how what happened at Delta had a material effect on improving pilot compensation in the industry as a whole.

Thank you.

 

[wheelsup]

CFIse, are you for real? Or a troll? Judging by your comments over at mesahub you aren't too well liked for your views over there either. You are most certainly a "company" man. Management...?

 

[CFIse]

CFIse, are you for real? Or a troll? Judging by your comments over at mesahub you aren't too well liked for your views over there either. You are most certainly a "company" man. Management...?

Oh I'm for real. People over at mesahub don't like to have reality intrude on their paranoia. If you read mesahub you'll soon believe that JO personally reviews the schedule of every pilot and makes adjustments to ensure that their QOL is as bad as possible. The reality is that JO (and Mesa management in general) doesn't CARE about pilot QOL. So, if you want to change pilot QOL you need to find something that Mesa management DOES care about (in a positive way) and that will affect pilot QOL and try and negotiate on that point.

For example - scheduling minimum rest and scheduling long duty days really screw up the company when anything goes wrong with the schedule at all and yes, by the way, they're pilot QOL issues. If we can convince Mesa that scheduling more rest than minimum and scheduling shorter duty days will allow mean that more flights will be completed on time by the original crews and SAVE THE COMPANY MONEY then they'll make the change, and magically pilot QOL will improve.

If you make that point on mesahub you get shouted down, because of course JO would intervene and make SURE that pilots were, individually, given the worse QOL possible.

And hey, it amuses me, just like it amuses me over here to watch people make assumptions about my background and motivations and hence draw conclusions. Just read the written word people, it's all you need to know.

 

[kellwolf]

You're kidding me? You think the Mesaba guys won't strike b/c Delta and NWA gave in? Just b/c they're regional doesn't mean they "look up" to the majors. A lot of the guys over there have NO aspirations of moving up to a major. They'd be taking serious pay cuts for the first few years if they did. Now, they might have those pay cuts forced on them anyway. Some guys are staying there b/c they have the seniority and the quality of life they want, which they would lose by going to the bottom of a seniority list at a major. Due to some aspects of the contract, they might even lose some of that QOL. Some have already lost it by being knocked from the Avro to the Saab.

Besides, Woerth has now come out and said he won't sign any contract that is forced on the Mesaba pilots. They might not have to strike if the Prez of ALPA won't sign the garbage. Nice to see some backbone from the top, though.

 

[derg]

Not only do I read mesahub, I... Well nevermind.

Dude, trust me, quit while you're umm, "ahead".

 

[B767Driver]

This was never a personal discussion about you - the Delta pilot group failed to hold the line - they drew a line, but when push came to shove they erased it and slid back. If you didn't vote for it, good for you, but the Delta pilot group did vote for it.

The union movement was, of course, built on the kind of industrial action where the people in the union vote in a concessionary contract and then individually leave the industry to work somewhere else. Give me a break. If your idea of the Delta pilots holding the line on compensation means accepting the contract and then quitting the industry then no wonder we've got a problem.

The original post was about the Mesaba pilots striking to send a message about pilot compensation. Yet how can we expect the Mesaba pilots to hold the line when, after buckets of rhetoric, the Delta pilots wouldn't step up and do it.

I'm sorry, you may believe that the Delta pilots really showed somebody in the last round of actions, but I don't, and I don't know many who do. I know a LOT of people, me included, who understand WHY the Delta pilots did what they did. The bottom line however, if your pilot group can't hold the line on pilot compensation then you don't get to climb up on your pedastal and preach how other pilot groups ought to get out there and do something you weren't willing to do.

CFIse,

After reading your posts...it is clear to me you don't have a clue as to what went on with the Delta pilot group's objective with the threat of a strike.

A strike would have occured if a contract was imposed or thrown out.

Delta was able to retain 100% of their work rules. Do you have any idea how important that is? Pay is probably not the most desirable objective to obtain in a pilot contract...it might recover. Work rules most likely will not.

I'd like to go on...but for the sake of professionalism, I'll leave it at that.

 

[B767Driver]

Well great - please explain to me what happened at Delta. Please emphasiss in your response how what happened at Delta had a material effect on improving pilot compensation in the industry as a whole.

Thank you.

I'll give you just one. Had the Delta pilots not threatened to strike against a rejected contract...we'd find 4 day trips worth 12 hours.

The elimination of trip and duty rigs has the most material and detrimental effects on the profession.

How about no disability or survivorship plan? How about zero retirement? (the new DC plan has considerable merit for a younger person) How about 50% of pay for sick time? How about only 1 paid sick trip per year? How about scheduling rules for lines of time?

There's a lot more than just pay going on here...and a framework for the future has been left in tact.

 

[wheelsup]

Delta was able to retain 100% of their work rules. Do you have any idea how important that is? Pay is probably not the most desirable objective to obtain in a pilot contract...it might recover. Work rules most likely will not.

Keep in mind he works for mesa, and has no idea what work rules even are (or at least how effective they are at making your paycheck bigger).

 

[derg]

"But d00d we got the jets! 1337!"

 

[CFIse]

You're kidding me? You think the Mesaba guys won't strike b/c Delta and NWA gave in? Just b/c they're regional doesn't mean they "look up" to the majors.

Besides, Woerth has now come out and said he won't sign any contract that is forced on the Mesaba pilots. They might not have to strike if the Prez of ALPA won't sign the garbage. Nice to see some backbone from the top, though.

I think the Mesaba guys won't strike for a variety of reasons. My original point, way back when, was that if Delta, NW etc. wouldn't hold the line on compensation then they don't get to tell the people at Mesaba they should hold the line on compensation. There are precious few pilot groups that get to preach to other pilot groups about holding the line on compensation.

I thought Mesaba was a court hearing and hence an imposed contract. I don't think ALPA gets to sign it - it just is what the court says it is. It would be nice to see some backbone at the top, but I don't think this is it.

 

[CFIse]

After reading your posts...it is clear to me you don't have a clue as to what went on with the Delta pilot group's objective with the threat of a strike.

A strike would have occured if a contract was imposed or thrown out.

Delta was able to retain 100% of their work rules. Do you have any idea how important that is? Pay is probably not the most desirable objective to obtain in a pilot contract...it might recover. Work rules most likely will not.

I'd like to go on...but for the sake of professionalism, I'll leave it at that.

You seem to think I don't think the Delta pilots should have signed the contract? You'd be wrong, I think they should have for a variety of reasons. Go back to the top of the thread.

I used Delta et. al. as an example of pilot groups not holding the line on compensation (by which I meant pay, but I can see how that can be confused). If you are part of a pilot group that wouldn't hold the line on pay then you don't get to tell ANY other pilot group they should hold the line on pay, least of all the pilots at Mesaba and PSA who can afford a strike a LOT less than the people at Delta could. That's my primary point, everybodies all about how pilots need to hold the line on pay or this industry will never be what it was, but push comes to shove and nobody is actually willing to do it themselves.

And before your fingers hit the keyboards, *I* haven't told any other group to hold the line on pay, *I* just said I thought the PSA pilots would take the 900s.

 

[CFIse]

There's a lot more than just pay going on here...and a framework for the future has been left in tact.

Thanks for making my point - the issue UNDER DISCUSSION HERE is pay, all the rest of it is irrelevant (except that they are all good reasons WHY the Delta pilots took the agreement).

 

[BobDDuck]

Thanks for making my point - the issue UNDER DISCUSSION HERE is pay, all the rest of it is irrelevant (except that they are all good reasons WHY the Delta pilots took the agreement).

Actually the issue has nothing to do with pay. In the end the numbers could manifest with pay but the vast majority of people here (PSA) don't care so much about the actual $$ figure. The problem is that the company is asking us to take a concesnion while they are making $300 million of profit. We would be happy with QOL improvments if they were to offer up those but as of yet they are insisting on take it or leave it.

Sure it sucks that Delta took the deal, but they were able to protect their infrastructure. We aren't even being offered infrastructure improvments (and in fact another part of the TA gives the company the right to mix lines with 200, 700 and 900 flying giving them a HUGE cost savings).

 

[CFIse]

Actually the issue has nothing to do with pay. In the end the numbers could manifest with pay but the vast majority of people here (PSA) don't care so much about the actual $$ figure. The problem is that the company is asking us to take a concesnion while they are making $300 million of profit. We would be happy with QOL improvments if they were to offer up those but as of yet they are insisting on take it or leave it.

Sure it sucks that Delta took the deal, but they were able to protect their infrastructure. We aren't even being offered infrastructure improvments (and in fact another part of the TA gives the company the right to mix lines with 200, 700 and 900 flying giving them a HUGE cost savings).

Unless I read it wrong you started this thread - and in the initial message it was all about pay.

I still think the PSA pilots will take the deal - they may not like it, but they won't like the alternatives any better. Try to remember I don't WANT them to take the deal, I just think they will.

 

[CFIse]

"But d00d we got the jets! 1337!"

Look, the Mesa pilot group deserves almost all the crap that gets thrown at them, although next time we're busting our ass trying to get you in the jump seat try to remember to tell the captain what you think of him so I can stop trying to find half weights and working with the ramp to figure out which bags really are heavy or which ones can be left behind.

Regardless - if you want to bash Mesa start another "Mesa Sucks" thread and take your childish antics over there and I promise not to respond.

All I said about the Delta pilots is they have no standing to tell anybody else to hold the line on compensation. And based on this post it seems some of them can't take much of a position on high school diplomas since they don't seem to have graduated kindergarten.